Author Topic: Madog of Guilsfield Montgomeryshire vs Maddocks (or similar Modern Name)  (Read 399 times)

Offline Llanfihangel

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
My question comes from looking in FindMyPast for Madog records in Wales. I started to look because of the very unusual S27900 marker found for a couple of Williams, two Madocs (Maddux and Madox),two Powells and myself in the RP 312 group in FamilytreeDNA.

Madog seemed to be the name to use to find a common ancestor..

I came across a David ap Owen ap David ap Madog who was buried in Guilsfield in 1597. There are several more Madogs clustered around that location and date.

Now, let's suppose that some of these Madogs are descended from Griffith ap Ieuan ap Madoc ap Gwenwys who was a famous comrade of Owain Glyndwr. He was around in 1400.

How on Earth can anyone trace their descent from him or his family based on records involving the tricky Welsh patrynomic naming system? 

Madogs emigrating to America would have their surname "frozen" so the name would persist to the present day. probably with variants like Maddox. Maddux etc. But that would well be after 1500.

However, I don't understand how a Madog family name (or variant) can be passed down from any time before about 1600 in Wales with any degree of confidence.

I suppose David ap Owen ap David ap Madog might name a son Madog ap David ap Owen ap David ap Madog but there is only so far one can go with that.

There is credible Quaker Record of ellis ap william ap hugh ap thomas ap david ap madoc ap evan ap Cott ap Evan ap Griffith ap Madoc ap Einion ap Meredith

But unless you have specific records like that, it baffles me how anyone can claim a Madog ancestry unless it was frozen as a surname in the Welsh records.

There are 22 Madog records in Montgomeryshire recorded in FindMyPast from 1574 to 1638... and that's it! There are no (zero) Madogs from then to the present day.

Where did they all go, or am I missing something

Very confused..

Kind suggestions will be appreciated  :) :) :) :)

Llanfi  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???


RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline despair

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,574
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Madog of Guilsfield Montgomeryshire vs Maddocks (or similar Modern Name)
« Reply #1 on: Friday 22 April 16 20:26 BST (UK) »
I can't really help directly,but you may be able to see more data and others attempts to interpret it in the "genealogies" heading at www.familysearch .org
You might need to use the search terms separately in "first names" and "last names".

Regards
Roger

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline dcbnwh

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,027
    • View Profile
Re: Madog of Guilsfield Montgomeryshire vs Maddocks (or similar Modern Name)
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 23 April 16 10:50 BST (UK) »
There are numerous similar names in Montgomeryshire in the censuses, including a Charles Maddocks born 1856 in Guilsfield. It sounds as though FindMyPast parish records are not as complete on Montgomeryshire, compared to other counties.

'Pedigrees of Anglesey and Carnarvonshire Families' is a useful source if you can find a link to one of the gentry, although it has little on Montgomeryshire, and only has one recent Madocks descended from a Madog - Vron in Denbighshire.

The book is available on DVD - http://anguline.co.uk/wales.html
It has plenty of ancient Madog(s).

David

Offline Llanfihangel

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 193
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Madog of Guilsfield Montgomeryshire vs Maddocks (or similar Modern Name)
« Reply #3 on: Monday 25 April 16 10:37 BST (UK) »
Thanks dcbnwh and despair!

I found what I think are three distinct Madog families. (1) The Llanfrynach (Breconshire) family is described as extinct in a book called "The annals and antiquities of the counties and county families of Wales". (2) The Guilsfield family that I have already mentioned, and (3) Gruffydd ap Madoc of Valle Crucis Denbighshire.

I obtained a copy of "The history of the princes, the lords marcher, and the ancient nobility of Powys Fadog, and the ancient lords of Arwystli, Cedewen and Meirionydd" and decided that I would leave my research alone... It is far too complicated!!!

However, my question remains.... Madog is a "family name" and a descendant of (say) David ap Madog, called Hugh would be Hugh ap David ap Madog. If Hugh had three sons Evan, William, and Jenkin they would be Evan ap Hugh ap David ap Madog etc. Evan could have a son called William.. William ap Evan ap Hugh ap David ap Madog.

The Church eventually dropped the patronymic (older) names, and William ap Evan ap Hugh ap David ap Madog would be recorded as William Evans.

So, how can the present-day surname of Maddock, Maddux, or similar variant of Madog be derived from the Family Name?  The Church might go back a couple of generations of "Aps" at a Christening to accommodate a family determined to preserve the family name of Madog, but would record the child's name as (say) Madog Evans.

Do you think the surnames Madoc, Madocs, Maddock etc came from re-assignment of a Christian name such as Maddox back to a surname? Or is there another the process where an old Welsh family name can survive?

It is similarly baffling to me how two Madocs can show up so far apart in the name "ellis ap william ap hugh ap thomas ap david ap madoc ap evan ap Cott ap Evan ap Griffith ap Madoc ap Einion ap Meredith"!

Cheers,
Llanfi  ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)