Author Topic: Trouble with Tolleys  (Read 3758 times)

Offline Tuggybear

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • The future is all about the past
    • View Profile
Re: Trouble with Tolleys
« Reply #9 on: Monday 25 April 16 11:30 BST (UK) »
Annette7 thank you for that, it certainly seems that the birth certificate will indicate that this is indeed my family and Elizabeth Milnthorpe fits in with the census so I am keeping my fingers crossed that you have found the John and Elizabeth I am searching for. Obviously Thomas was either not John's son or was born before they married in this case.
I did wonder about the long gap between the older children and their younger siblings and wondered if I was looking for a first marriage too. I hadn't realised that Jane and Mary Ann had died in Warwick and, if they are indeed part of my Tolley family as it seems they may well be, I'd really appreciate it if you would let me have the burial details.
I had Emma confused with Emma Elizabeth christened in Birmingham St Martin as after her marriage to Richard Bullivant in 1850 she used the name Elizabeth on at least one census return.
I feel rather sorry for Nellie as my mum-in-law knows nothing about her and refuses to believe she existed as her mum, aunts and grandmother never mentioned her. I am wondering if she was something to do with George Henry disappearing to Birmingham after 1901 and if that was part of the reason that Grandma never forgave him.
I know there were big family secrets as one aunt took her own life and eventually I discovered it was because she thought her husband, a wealthy and educated man, was having an affair. he denied this but Jane was certain and it drove her to end her life. Investigating this I discovered that it is indeed highly possible that he was having an affair and that after emigrating he came back to England, married his lover and took her and their son back with him. These Tolley's are certainly getting me burning the midnight oil but they are quite an interesting family to research.
Knight, Bates, Newton, Pick,Perkins, Marshall, North, Kilby, Beckett, Prince.

Offline Annette7

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,009
    • View Profile
Re: Trouble with Tolleys
« Reply #10 on: Monday 25 April 16 15:06 BST (UK) »
I have given you the burial details of Jane and Mary Ann already - just states burial date and age.

Only the birth certificate of the Nellie Tolley birth June quarter 1895 Leicester will tell you if she was indeed the daughter of George Henry and Lois.

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Tuggybear

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • The future is all about the past
    • View Profile
Re: Trouble with Tolleys
« Reply #11 on: Monday 25 April 16 16:08 BST (UK) »
Thanks again Annette, sorry, I read your original reply through very quickly and didn't take all the information in properly. Thank you so much.
Yes, I need to get a birth certificate for Nellie to try and discover her story and maybe what happened to her between 1895 and 1911 and indeed after 1911. :)
Knight, Bates, Newton, Pick,Perkins, Marshall, North, Kilby, Beckett, Prince.

Offline Annette7

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,009
    • View Profile
Re: Trouble with Tolleys
« Reply #12 on: Monday 25 April 16 19:48 BST (UK) »
Yes, Nellie does seem to be a mystery after 1911.   I wonder if the 1895 birth is indeed her that she was a child of Lois and not George Henry??  Perhaps he was working away or they'd been a parting of the ways for a while and he definitely wasn't the father.   Since Lois' legal name was Tolley any child she had that wasn't her husbands would still be registered as Tolley.

If George and Lois had split for a while and then got back together he might have refused to have Nellie living with them - believe there were a couple of Nellies shown as adopted in 1901 in Leicester and Nellie Tolley could have been farmed out, so to speak.   I note that one of the adoptees is shown as Nellie Blank bc.1895 birthplace unknown with a Samuel and Sarah Jennings.   Sounds like the adopted 'parents' didn't know her real surname or where she was born.   No Nellie Blank that fits on last census and certainly not with Samuel Jennings.

Please post again on this thread when you get Nellie Tolley's birth certificate for 1895.   I certainly can't see any obvious marriage/death for her in the name of Tolley (in Leicester anyway) but a full birthdate might help identify in death index if she died after 1968.   Nor can I find her in emigration records.

Frustrating, isn't it?

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline willsy

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,205
    • View Profile
Re: Trouble with Tolleys
« Reply #13 on: Monday 25 April 16 20:31 BST (UK) »
Have had a look at baptisms, but they are just reference

St Margaret
TOLLEY    CYRIL WILLIAM    LOIS MARIA    1907   31-Mar

TOLLEY    NEVA    GEORGE HENRY & LOIS    1904   14-Nov

St Andrews
TOLLEY    ELIZABETH ANN    GEORGE HENRY & LOIS MARY   22-Jun 1897

On the school index register

Tolley    Elizabeth Ann   born 23   Aug   1891

Tolley    Neva    20   born Nov   1903

and on the school leaving dates, microfiche records at Leicester records office

Leaving date
28    Jul   1905       Tolley   Elizabeth Ann   age 14
20    Dec   1901       Tolley   Lois M   age 12
7   May   1909       Tolley   Nellie (Golby)   age 14
16   Nov   1917       Tolley   Neva    age 14

Confused you some more I think!



Willsy

Ward, Newark (Nottingham), Leicester, Scarborough
Warren, Northampton, Leicester
Moore, Leicestershire
Hunt, Leicestershire
Kirkman, Leicestershire
Hurst, Leicester, Stowmarket
Kendrick, Leicestershire
Eld, Leicestershire
Essex Edey/Eady Elsden/Elsdon

Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives

Offline Annette7

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,009
    • View Profile
Re: Trouble with Tolleys
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 26 April 16 02:18 BST (UK) »
Well, willsy's findings seems to open up a can of worms.

There is no birth for a Nellie Golby 1895 Leicester BUT there is as we know a Nellie Tolley.

On 1901 census a William Golby and wife Mabel Lee Golby have a William Golby bc.1884, Nellie Golby bc.1896 and a Mabel D. Golby 5 mos.

On next census Nellie Golby 15 is still with William and Mabel - occupation Fancy Hosiery.
Yet, the Nellie Tolley who is 'missing' in 1901 is with mother Lois and they are involved in Hosiery too!!

I then found a marriage for a Nellie T. Golby to a Charles F. Thompson in 1918 Leicester.

This then lead me to check ancestry trees and found that Charles Frederick Thompson married Nellie Tolley Golby 24/12/1918 Leicester.   Nellie is said to have been born 13/5/1895 Leicester and died 28/4/1986 Leicester as Nellie Tolley Thompson.   However, the tree I looked at states that Nellie Golby is the dau. of William Golby and wife Mabel Lee and yet her birth is registered in the name of Tolley??  William Golby didn't marry Mabel until 1899 and she was a Mabel Chapman.

William Golby was born in Coventry ca.1850 and was first married to a Sarah Ann - checking marriages this appears to be a Sarah Ann Smith whom William Golby married Sept.1875 Leicester.   He and Sarah Ann had a daughter Alice Beatrice born 1875, a son Samuel born and died in 1877 and a son William in 1884.   Sarah Ann died in 1885 and in 1891 William is a widower with dau. Alice and son William - transcribed on ancestry as Golly.

So, he's a widower in 1891, marries Mabel in 1899 (whose surname is Chapman) and yet appears to have a daughter Nellie born 1895 known as Nellie Tolley Golby.   So, is my earlier thought that Lois had her daughter Nellie Tolley illegitimately i.e. not the child of her husband George Henry, correct?   Was William Golby, widower in 1895, really Nellie's father or was she 'adopted' and simply claimed as his daughter.   At this point, it sounds like he was probably her natural father.

Your thought that it seemed strange that Lois stated in 1911 that she'd had 3 children, then altered it to 4 children and Nellie Tolley suddenly appears as daughter makes you wonder if - as husband George has left her - she decides to 'include' her daughter Nellie Tolley on the census form when in actual fact she is still living with William Golby and his 2nd wife Mabel and goes on to marry as Nellie Tolley Golby and dies as Nellie Tolley Thompson. 

This explains why current family knew nothing about Nellie as she was brought up by William Golby and it seems Lois listed Nellie as Tolley, daughter,  in 1911 maybe as an afterthought because she'd actually given birth to 4 children, not 3 (even if one wasn't her husbands).

So, clearly the birth certificate of Nellie Tolley birth June quarter 1895 Leicester, is vitally important to confirm if indeed Lois was the mother.

What a tangled web!

Annette       
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Tuggybear

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
  • The future is all about the past
    • View Profile
Re: Trouble with Tolleys
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 26 April 16 10:42 BST (UK) »
Eeeeek! it is now looking more confusing than I thought. I knew George Henry Tolley was a puzzle as he disappeared after 1901 and through some valuable rootschat help I found him in the air force in 1919 and after than living in Birmingham. MIL knows he went to Birmingham but her grandma wouldn't speak of him and never forgave him for leaving her. MIL met him briefly shortly after the death of her mother Lois Maria. He came to their house in Court B, Northgate Street to offer his condolences to John Newton, Lois's husband but he never went to see his estranged wife Lois Mary and nobody ever mentioned him before or after that other than to tell MIL he'd left her grandma with three girls to raise and gone off to Birmingham. I'd assumed that Nellie was his daughter because of the name Tolley quite forgetting that Lois was also now a Tolley and I can't see her taking on George's illegitimate child if she was not the mother as Lois strikes me as having been a very forceful and opinionated woman. (in a good way.) As you say Annette, the birth certificate is of great importance so I will go into town later in the week and order that.
Gosh Willsy, thanks for all that information. Cyril was the younger Lois' son and we have no idea who the father was. She married John William Newton in 1911 and their first child Harry was born the following year. John accepted Cyril as one of his own children according to MIL and gave him a good upbringing and even Cyril's grandson, sadly now deceased himself, had no knowledge of his father's father. Neva Tolley's baptism at St Margarets has surprised me somewhat as she was born in Lancashire. The name Neva, as far as I know is relevant to the Tolley family from George Henry. It is a Russian name, something to do with a river I think and was handed down via Lois Maria to her daughter Neva and from her to her own daughter, my husband's cousin.
I am writing all this up to try and organise things in my mind whilst waiting for James Tolley's birth certificate to arrive. I have also looked into Thomas Tolley/Milnthorpe a little more and it is looking more probable that his mother is my John Tolley's wife as Thomas RADLEY MILLTHORPE married Lucy Baxter in Leicester in 1844 by 1851 they lived at Park Place, Horton Bradford. By 1861 they were at Frog Island Leicester. In 1871 they were living at 31 Henry Street, Leicester and by 1881 they were living in Fuller Street, Leicester. They were now listed as MILLINGTHORPE. in 1891 they remained at the same address and were listed as MILNTHORPE. Their children included James. George Sarah, Elizabeth and Thomas so several family names there.
I am now waiting somewhat impatiently for the birth certificate to arrive.  :D
Knight, Bates, Newton, Pick,Perkins, Marshall, North, Kilby, Beckett, Prince.

Offline willsy

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,205
    • View Profile
Re: Trouble with Tolleys
« Reply #16 on: Tuesday 26 April 16 20:07 BST (UK) »
Funny I was looking at that marriage last night, so have a bit

1918    24-Dec   Leicester, St Mark
GOLBY   Charles F      
Nellie T   THOMPSON   

and chipping away with what I have

St Margaret 1844

Entry No. 50,  OCT 13, 1844, after Banns
THOMAS RADLEY MILLTHORPE, full age, bach. ENGINE DRIVER, of PRINGLE St, s. of THOMAS MILLTHORPE, ENGINEER
LUCY BAXTER, full age, sp. of PRINGLE St, d. of THOMAS BAXTER, FWK
Wits: JOSEPH MOORE,  ELIZABETH MOORE

Entry No. 81,  NOV 10, 1844, after Banns
THOMAS UNDERWOOD, minor, bach. FWK, of PRINGLE St, s. of JOSEPH UNDERWOOD, FWK
ELLEN TOLLEY, minor, sp. of PRINGLE St, d. of JOHN TOLLEY, WORSTED SPINNER
Wits: GEORGE MILES,  SARAH TOLLEY
Willsy

Ward, Newark (Nottingham), Leicester, Scarborough
Warren, Northampton, Leicester
Moore, Leicestershire
Hunt, Leicestershire
Kirkman, Leicestershire
Hurst, Leicester, Stowmarket
Kendrick, Leicestershire
Eld, Leicestershire
Essex Edey/Eady Elsden/Elsdon

Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives

Offline willsy

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,205
    • View Profile
Re: Trouble with Tolleys
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 26 April 16 20:26 BST (UK) »
You'll be chasing the postman tomorrow!
Willsy

Ward, Newark (Nottingham), Leicester, Scarborough
Warren, Northampton, Leicester
Moore, Leicestershire
Hunt, Leicestershire
Kirkman, Leicestershire
Hurst, Leicester, Stowmarket
Kendrick, Leicestershire
Eld, Leicestershire
Essex Edey/Eady Elsden/Elsdon

Census Transcriptions are Crown Copyright from National Archives