Author Topic: John Bowman c.1821-1863  (Read 2792 times)

Offline dmbtmartin

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Re: John Bowman c.1821-1863
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 02:05 BST (UK) »

Suz, many thanks also.  :) I acknowledge that this has been familiar and, perhaps, wearisome territory for you: another newbie to the forum, keen to give solidity to old family stories. However, I reiterate that there is a prima facie case for John Bowman having GRT roots, not a powerful one, but one that is nonetheless worthwhile investigating (on the basis of the name and occupation having GRT associations). I write this because I couldn't see how points you made against the hypothesis actually served as evidence against it, and thus left me feeling slightly confused.

To wit:

- "a residence not a tent or caravan (as is usual in travellers)". By integrating into the sedantry community it would be expected that tents and caravans have been eschewed in favour of bricks and mortar.

-  in relation to the point about the John Bowman of Appleby. As alluded to, I very quickly realised he wasn't my man when I saw him on the 1851 census. But, for that matter, neither the point that he worked on a farm or became a woodsman would not be sufficient to exclude that John Bowman as a GRT candidate. Farms were, and remain, prime venues for employment. [I recall that Ewan MacColl song: 'The farmer said the work's all done/it's time that you were moving on'. I digress!] And surely, his learning how to handle an axe would not have been beyond his skill-capacity had he become settled.

- My describing Clark's Yard as more of a "ramshackle slum" was not an exercise in wishful thinking done to make John Bowman to appear more likely of GRT stock. I would submit that it shares many of the characteristics of a slum: cramped, irregular, decrepit housing, set back from a main thoroughfare by a long narrow passage, nested in darkness amongst a hodgepodge of other buildings - inns, stables, warehouses, workshops - and inhabited by poor people. The yard received sewering and paving in 1857, but a newly-built mill worker's terrace in the town must have seemed palatial in comparison. The snapshot the 1861 census provides coincides with the onset of the Lancashire Cotton Famine, and descriptions of Church Street and its environs in 1865 are Dickensian in the sense of vice and destitution conveyed. I wager that if one had to choose a place to live in Preston in 1861 you would struggle to find many superior picture-postcard examples of its squalor. The yard had existed since at least the C17th and its remaining houses were demolished in the 1930s as they were deemed unfit for human habitation; this programme was known popularly as 'slum clearance'. Winckley Square, it was NOT! It was just the sort of place that one could reasonably imagine an itinerant gispy tinman taking up residence.

Finally, on this point, I would contend that it is not reasonable to deduce that the area was "not really" slumlike on the basis that it counted amongst its residents a "shopman a boot & shoe maker people in various types of employment in the cotton industry". If we look at that archetypal mother-of-all-slums, Old Nichol's Rookery in Bethnal Green, on the census of the same year, we find - in addition to shopmen, and boot and shoemakers - cabinet makers, marble masons, carpet weavers, looking glass makers, french polishers, blacksmiths, glass blowers, tinplate workers, engineers, and silk-weavers. This was indeed the sort of place that members of the GRT community and their descendants settled, and, again, it is well to note, all of them are in a residence, not a tent or caravan.

In summary, Suz, I do not doubt that for, say, every ten family stories of "gypsy blood" nine are without apparent foundation, but we should be careful not to prematurely exclude those that are out of habit and without good evidence and reasoning; to do so is to invert the sort of confirmation bias I myself have tried to be wary of in chasing the ghost of John Bowman.   :)

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: John Bowman c.1821-1863
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 27 April 16 08:57 BST (UK) »
from the census it doesn't appear John Bowman is a traveller
on both census he is in a residence not a tent or caravan (as is usual in travellers)
Agnes is a servant at a farm in 1861 and stating she is unmarried

Suz

Though the census is only a record of one particular day and some Romany did live in housing through the winter. Especially in the industrial areas.


If the John Bowman you found in Appleby 1841 is this one
Barwise Hall Hoff Appleby in Westmorland
John Bowman 20 ag lab yes
HO107 1156 5 10

then he hadn't any "gypsy" connections either - he was working on a farm and married Sarah and later became a woodman - no signs of being a "traveller"...



Some Romany did work as agricultural labourers and are on the census as such.


If you look at occupations of neighbours in Clarks Yard - there is a shopman a boot & shoe maker people in various types of employment in the cotton industry - so not really " more of a ramshackle slum  than the residence of a skilled craftsman"

Suz

Mill work (cotton/woollen) was not a "skilled craftsman" job. It was mostly unskilled work. More like industrial labour than a skill. "Shoe making", like tailoring, could also be very poorly paid work as well. "Yards" and courts were often dwellings at the back of other housing and many were notorious for there dingy slum conditions.

I do not know if this family were travellers or not but I would not be so quick to jump to a definite conclusion, as you seem to do. Yes there are the stereotypical occupations like "hawker" but life is a bit more complicated than that and people took work where they could find it.
I knew a family , Romany, whose grt grandfather was a very successful local business man. So successful that he sent his daughter to a private school. His brothers were coal miners and some of the aunties worked in a textile mill.
Another family lived in the centre of Leeds, itinerant "hawkers, scrap metal dealers and horse dealers". One of them went to Australia and became a civil servant, he held a responsible job, handling public funding in Sydney. I have seen a photo of this person and he was so dark that he looked like an Indian. He started life in a slum, in the 1860s
There is a topic running at the moment on the beginners board. The family are very obviously Romany on the early census and relatives are on Romany family history websites, but by the late 1800's one branch are in housing and working in the industrial woollen mills in the West Riding

Things are not always as they first appear and sometimes you have to keep an open mind and dig a little deeper

Offline rob g

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Re: John Bowman c.1821-1863
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 28 April 16 06:21 BST (UK) »
Hi. Martin? Just a little information on your subject. Don't know if you are from the Romany community. But for good or bad. Lol. I am. So here's a something that may be of interest. The bowman family are interrelated with lots of Romany folks. Including my own family. Mainly in Cumberland. Area. And were Olso farmers. /farm workers. In and around. Penrith. Only 26 miles from Kendal. Descendents still travelling. Also horse dealers. Still are. And international horsemen. They were 1st cousin's to my mother's family. Gypsies have allways done seasonally related farm work. Still do. Also whitemetal  workers are a known term for tinkers. As to travelling folks abodes. We have allways spent time in houses. I.e in winter. So you can find us in all types of accommodation. We can/do make a living at many things. Changing occupations. Often. We have allways given mis information. To escape persecution. So odd things crop up. Not saying the people you are researching are travelling folks.  But. Bowmans have a long travelling history. they are in the area. You mentioned. Are working in farming circles. And have intermarriage with gypsies. Regards Rob.
romany history, mitchell family history. Earthenware. general . And horse. I dealers/hawkers. market trading.  lancashire. cumbria. staffordshire.scotland. paternal, side. wilson. lee. burton. miller .burnside. Smith. varey. howard. Jones. Lowther. Evens. Ward. Dale.maternal, side. miller cumbria, stewert. mitchell. allan. Ireland. donaghue, Kelly. Murphy. Young. Plus many others. .

Offline suzard

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Re: John Bowman c.1821-1863
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 28 April 16 08:11 BST (UK) »

Suz, many thanks also.  :) I acknowledge that this has been familiar and, perhaps, wearisome territory for you: another newbie to the forum, keen to give solidity to old family stories. However, I reiterate that there is a prima facie case for John Bowman having GRT roots, not a powerful one, but one that is nonetheless worthwhile investigating (on the basis of the name and occupation having GRT associations). I write this because I couldn't see how points you made against the hypothesis actually served as evidence against it, and thus left me feeling slightly confused.

To wit:

- "a residence not a tent or caravan (as is usual in travellers)". By integrating into the sedantry community it would be expected that tents and caravans have been eschewed in favour of bricks and mortar.

-  in relation to the point about the John Bowman of Appleby. As alluded to, I very quickly realised he wasn't my man when I saw him on the 1851 census. But, for that matter, neither the point that he worked on a farm or became a woodsman would not be sufficient to exclude that John Bowman as a GRT candidate. Farms were, and remain, prime venues for employment. [I recall that Ewan MacColl song: 'The farmer said the work's all done/it's time that you were moving on'. I digress!] And surely, his learning how to handle an axe would not have been beyond his skill-capacity had he become settled.

- My describing Clark's Yard as more of a "ramshackle slum" was not an exercise in wishful thinking done to make John Bowman to appear more likely of GRT stock. I would submit that it shares many of the characteristics of a slum: cramped, irregular, decrepit housing, set back from a main thoroughfare by a long narrow passage, nested in darkness amongst a hodgepodge of other buildings - inns, stables, warehouses, workshops - and inhabited by poor people. The yard received sewering and paving in 1857, but a newly-built mill worker's terrace in the town must have seemed palatial in comparison. The snapshot the 1861 census provides coincides with the onset of the Lancashire Cotton Famine, and descriptions of Church Street and its environs in 1865 are Dickensian in the sense of vice and destitution conveyed. I wager that if one had to choose a place to live in Preston in 1861 you would struggle to find many superior picture-postcard examples of its squalor. The yard had existed since at least the C17th and its remaining houses were demolished in the 1930s as they were deemed unfit for human habitation; this programme was known popularly as 'slum clearance'. Winckley Square, it was NOT! It was just the sort of place that one could reasonably imagine an itinerant gispy tinman taking up residence.

Finally, on this point, I would contend that it is not reasonable to deduce that the area was "not really" slumlike on the basis that it counted amongst its residents a "shopman a boot & shoe maker people in various types of employment in the cotton industry". If we look at that archetypal mother-of-all-slums, Old Nichol's Rookery in Bethnal Green, on the census of the same year, we find - in addition to shopmen, and boot and shoemakers - cabinet makers, marble masons, carpet weavers, looking glass makers, french polishers, blacksmiths, glass blowers, tinplate workers, engineers, and silk-weavers. This was indeed the sort of place that members of the GRT community and their descendants settled, and, again, it is well to note, all of them are in a residence, not a tent or caravan.

In summary, Suz, I do not doubt that for, say, every ten family stories of "gypsy blood" nine are without apparent foundation, but we should be careful not to prematurely exclude those that are out of habit and without good evidence and reasoning; to do so is to invert the sort of confirmation bias I myself have tried to be wary of in chasing the ghost of John Bowman.   :)

this has not been a wearisome territory for me - I was giving my opinion that I could find no definite evidence of the travelling community. I would research further back looking for further information.
What is great about this site is the wealth of information of the members  all willing to help and all with different areas of knowledge.
Suz
Thornhill, Cresswell, Sisson, Harriman, Cripps, Eyre, Walter, Marson, Battison, Holmes, Bailey, Hardman, Fairhurst Noon-mainly in Derbys/Notts-but also Northampton, Oxford, Leics, Lancs-England
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk