Author Topic: Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)  (Read 8768 times)

Offline Billy_B

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Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)
« on: Thursday 28 April 16 22:59 BST (UK) »
My grandfather William Barnes has proved elusive. The first paperwork we have on him is his marriage certificate and we have looked into every William Barnes from Liverpool listed at FreeBMD born five years either side of 1872 (the estimate from the census an marriage certificate) - ordered certificates, looked them up in the census an reconstructed the family trees, only to find out he is none of them.

So we had a family meeting today to draw together what facts we can prove an what we "know".

What we can prove (or at least what we have paperwork for):

  • He was born on May 31, 1872 - from the 1939 Register.
  • He married Annie Ryan on October November 10, 1895 in St Joseph's Church, Liverpool - from their wedding certificate.
  • His father was named Thomas who was a mariner and was deceased at the time of his son's wedding - from their wedding certificate.
  • He was born in Liverpool - from the 1901 an 1911 census.
  • He died on March 14, 1946 at the age of 75 - from death certificate.
  • He was buried in plot AC 365 in Ford Cemetery, Litherland on March 17, 1946 - from the Catholic registry of burials.

What we "know" (often relying on 60-70 year-old memories and perhaps a few rumours):

  • He claimed to be English "through and through".
  • His mother, apparently, died when he was little, an his step-mother was "the best mother he could ever have had".
  • A plaque on his mantlepiece was to: Elizabeth, gone but not forgotten.
  • There is a memory that his stepmother might have been called Eliza Berry but there is no such marriage in the time period.
  • His father was apparently lost at sea also when he was young.
  • He had a cousin called Julia Lynch (it likely her mother was his first cousin, as generationally Julia is of the same generation as William Barnes' children) who married a Mr Styles and had two daughters and a son Arthur who was a prison officer in Cumbria.
  • He had other relatives - George and Isabella Kirkpatrick who owned a furniture shop on Stanley Road in Bootle. William and Annie apparently had a rather over-large (enough that it was a talking point) piece of furniture in their house that they got from them.

What we have speculated on:

  • There is one William Barnes in the census we can't fit in with any of the known ones we've tracked down - aged 8 an living with an Elizabeth Barnes (a 33 year-old chemical worker from Ireland) in the 1881 census.
  • A Thomas Barnes from Liverpool was lost at sea when the Vicksburg sunk on June 1, 1875, he was aged 31. The sinking made the news. A cousin has also found a Thomas Barnes dying at sea in 1878 onboard the Devonia, but I can't confirm this.
  • If he was English "through and through" then it seems that a relative (aunt, sister, cousin?) married into the Lynches and Kirkpatricks, rather than him being descended from them.

Obviously, there are a range of possibilities for where the problem finding his birth come in:

  • His birth was never registered.
  • As both his parents seem to have died when he was still small, he may have been mistaken about where he was born.
  • His step-mother may have been mistaken (or been lying) about one or more details.
  • He isn't who he says he was - a theory my mother was in favour of, but she was suspicious of everyone. This might suggest that some (surname?), a lot (perhaps his dob stayed the same?) or all of our information is wrong.

Clearly, we've had to work the evidence based on the first couple of assumptions, as it'd be difficult to get around any serious doubt in the information. That said, I have had my DNA tested - Y DNA and autosomal. I've not had much luck with the Y tests but there are some 2nd-4th cousins who match strongly and the only English part of their ancestry seems to largely go back to Cheshire (with surnames like Arnett, Burgess, Davenport). Unfortunately, they've not replied to my email so it is just something I'll throw in, just in case one of those names turns up.

So that is what we have - it should have been enough to track his birth details (with parents) but it has proved elusive.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Offline Billy_B

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Re: Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 28 April 16 23:17 BST (UK) »
  • He had a cousin called Julia Lynch (it likely her mother was his first cousin, as generationally Julia is of the same generation as William Barnes' children) who married a Mr Styles and had two daughters and a son Arthur who was a prison officer in Cumbria.

This seemed the best angle of attack, trying to work up around the side of the brick wall an back down again.

A Julia Lynch married an Arthur Styles in 1929:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV89-Q74Q

They had two girls and a boy, one of whom was an Arthur Styles:


We can pick the parents up in the 1939 Register and so we have their dates of birth:

  • Julia: 14 Nov 1907
  • Arthur: 14 Nov 1903

This allows us to get her birth reg:
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/information.pl?cite=Mfas587bd3mpRT%2BG2yvbXw&scan=1

Luckily, there is only one three-year-old Julia Lynch in the 1911 census:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWR5-15V

The others in the 1911 census are (and there is a fourth child who died before then):

  • James Lynch, a fireman, born in Liverpool c. 1884 - father
  • Mary Lynch, born in Liverpool c. 1885 - mother
  • James Lynch, born in Liverpool c. 1906 - brother
  • Patrick Lynch, born in Liverpool c. 1911 - brother

From here it gets a bit tricky as there are a number of possible weddings between a James Lynch and a Mary within Liverpool:

  • 1894 - Toxteth Park
  • 1895 - Liverpool
  • 1898 - West Derby
  • 1905 - Liverpool

Offline suzard

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Re: Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)
« Reply #2 on: Friday 29 April 16 05:03 BST (UK) »
My grandfather William Barnes has proved elusive. The first paperwork we have on him is his marriage certificate and we have looked into every William Barnes from Liverpool listed at FreeBMD born five years either side of 1872 (the estimate from the census an marriage certificate) - ordered certificates, looked them up in the census an reconstructed the family trees, only to find out he is none of them.

So we had a family meeting today to draw together what facts we can prove an what we "know".

What we can prove (or at least what we have paperwork for):

    [
    • He married Annie Ryan on October 10, 1895 in St Joseph's Church, Liverpool - from their wedding certificate.
    [
St Joseph Liverpool Catholic Register
image clearly gives date of marriage as 10 November 1895

there are also 4 addresses given - Thomas was Nash St  Annie 52 Clare St
witnesses Michael Stanford 22 Rose Villa & Margarita Murphy 37 rose villa

Suz[/list]
Thornhill, Cresswell, Sisson, Harriman, Cripps, Eyre, Walter, Marson, Battison, Holmes, Bailey, Hardman, Fairhurst Noon-mainly in Derbys/Notts-but also Northampton, Oxford, Leics, Lancs-England
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Billy_B

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Re: Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)
« Reply #3 on: Friday 29 April 16 05:05 BST (UK) »
  • He had other relatives - George and Isabella Kirkpatrick who owned a furniture shop on Stanley Road in Bootle. William and Annie apparently had a rather over-large (enough that it was a talking point) piece of furniture in their house that they got from them.

George and Isabella seem to have been born around 1848:
1871 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBF8-QZF
1881 census: https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXX-LLYL

Which puts them in the same generation as William Barnes' parents, so... aunt or parent's cousin?

They were married in 1869 and her maiden name is Campbell (as we know from the brother-in-law Thomas) in the 1871 census:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N2B3-7VH

She appears to be the child of John and Martha Campbell:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N1H6-YMR

Birth reg:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2N3W-8HS

This might be them in the 1861 census, but you'd expect the brother to appear:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M78B-79P

Looks like John Campbell married a Martha Gall in 1841.

There is no evidence that they had a furniture store.


Offline Billy_B

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Re: Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)
« Reply #4 on: Friday 29 April 16 05:14 BST (UK) »
St Joseph Liverpool Catholic Register
image clearly gives date of marriage as 10 November 1895

So it does, thanks for spotting that. The certificate I was working from was issued in October 1924, which might have caught my eye and lead me astray.

Offline suzard

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Re: Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)
« Reply #5 on: Friday 29 April 16 05:41 BST (UK) »
I wonder if George and Isabella Kirkpatrick may have been related to the Ryans rather than the Barnes??

1871 census
Moses and Kate Ryan (Annie's parents) are lodging with the Brocksapp? family - and are living next door to George & Isabella Kirkpatrick

Suz
Thornhill, Cresswell, Sisson, Harriman, Cripps, Eyre, Walter, Marson, Battison, Holmes, Bailey, Hardman, Fairhurst Noon-mainly in Derbys/Notts-but also Northampton, Oxford, Leics, Lancs-England
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MaureeninNY

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Re: Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)
« Reply #6 on: Friday 29 April 16 12:16 BST (UK) »
Just some thoughts:


James LYNCH marries Mary CONNOR 1904 Liverpool (registrar attended)

Mary CONNOR daughter of Patrick and Julia CONNOR.

Julia BARRY marries Patrick CONNOR Sep Qtr 1871 Liverpool

Julia BARRY daughter of John and Johanna BARRY has a sister Eliza b.~1844.

Possible marriage for Thomas BARNES and Eliza BARRY Jun Qtr 1869 Liverpool.

Maureen

Offline MaureeninNY

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Re: Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)
« Reply #7 on: Friday 29 April 16 13:08 BST (UK) »
 :) :)
A*try
Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms,
Gulielmus BARON born 31 May 1872
Baptism: 16 Jun 1872
Parish:Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette, Lancashire, England
Father:Thomae Baron
Mother:Elizth Barry

Maureen

EDIT: It looks as though there were 2 other children (girls) born to the couple.

Offline Ruskie

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Re: Birth/baptism - William Barnes (b. 1872 in Liverpool)
« Reply #8 on: Friday 29 April 16 13:28 BST (UK) »
I read this thread earlier and put it into the "too hard to even think about while I am cooking dinner" basket.  ;D

I just wanted to pop in and say what great work you have done Maureen! It looks like you might have cracked it!