Alexander Mckenzie & Ann Greig abt 1780 - stuck

[McTeacher]

Hello,

I've been stuck for years on this.

I descend from Alexander McKenzie/McKinzie (dob and dod unknown) and Ann Greig (m Dec 25, 1802 in Guthrie - states "in Couthils" on the 1822 birth certif of his daughter). No mention of parents or other family members. He was a Cattle Dealer.

Ann (b:1782 Inverkeilor, Angus d:1864 Lunanhead, Angus).  I have a 1841 census entry (Guthrie) for Ann Greig (age 58) with and an Alexander McKenzie (age 93 - not born in that county - suspect he's her father-in-law) and an Alexander Gibb (age 14 - "servant" but fairly certain it was their grandson). I also have 1851 census showing her living as a widow with her daughter Ann and son-in-law (Alexander Laing), 1861 census showing her living alone in Lunan Head and a death certif (1864 - no info to help w/ this).

Ann was buried in "McKenzie ground Compartment E83, Lair #2, Forfar Cemetery"

Questions:

1) I'm stuck at Alexander McKenzie. Any suggestions of what to do next?

2) how do I look up if Alexander is buried w/ Ann?

3) Any useful new genealogical resources for the Angus area?


Not sure if this offers any clues (different religion?) but birth records for all children (Alexander b1803 (note: less than 5 months after marriage), Isoblel b1804, John b1807, William b1811, Charles b1812 (my line), Robert b1819, Ann b1822 - Guthrie Parish Register) oddly were entered in the parish registry on the same day of Ann's (last child's) birth. At the bottom of the page was written " The twelve preceding entries extracted from the Register in the custody of the Register in terms of the Acts 17 &18 ...".

Thank you for your time with this and happy hunting 

Scott (in Montreal)

[jennywren001]

Hi and welcome to Rootschat. You might want to have a gander at this thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=690269.0
Jen

[Forfarian]

Hi Scott

Older thread on the same family
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714620.9

See also
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/ANGUS/2006-06/1150840637
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/MCKENZIE/2002-06/1023392446

[McTeacher]

Thanks Jennywren001,

I read that post last year and replied at the time to offer my assistance. The info didn't provide any clues to the info I seek. Interesting read though.


Thanks Forarian as well,

Two of those were my posts and I read/contacted Catherine many years ago regarding her post (very informative.

[jennywren001]

Thanks Jennywren001,
I read that post last year and replied at the time to offer my assistance. The info didn't provide any clues to the info I seek. Interesting read though.

Sorry, I missed that - had I seen it I would have taken you up on the offer.

Mind it does seem a wee bit odd that any births showing for McK*nzie in Guthrie between 1750 and 1820 appear only to involve men called Alexander both of whom were allegedly cattle dealers. First with a Mary Gibb - last birth with Mary was in 1790 then with a Ann Greig - first birth with Ann in 1803. How have you managed to establish this is not one and the same man?

Jen

[McTeacher]

Hi Jen,

Thanks for your response.

That's exactly what I thought - strange. I can't seem to establish if this is the same guy or if it is, is this the 93 yr old living w/ Ann in the 1841 census (would have fathered his daughter Ann in his early 70s though). The Alexander in the 1841 census is stated to be born outside the county (her husband is dead by 1851 census (can't find dod or any info - hoping to get info from her burial location "McKenzie Ground, Compartment E83, Lair #2, Forfar Cemetary) according to classification of his wife Ann living w/ her daughter and son-in-law)).

The Alexander and Ann were both stated to be "in this parish" on wedding register. I'm don't think that means "of" this parish but mention it just in case. In the baptism register for several of Alexander and Ann's children he is stated as "in Couthils".

I notice that children's names weren't repeated in either family.


McKenzie - Gibb Connection:

You are correct about the birth of a James in 1788 (states "in Milfield" in Guthrie OPR) and a Jean in 1790 (states "in ??[couldn't make out this part]head" in Guthrie OPR) to an Alexander McKenzie and a Mary Gibb (married Guthrie 1788 "both of this parish".

As well my Alexander and his wife Ann Greig had a daughter Isobel who married an Alexander Gibb (1822) (I believe it is their son Alexander who was living with Alexander McKenzie and Ann Greig when the 1841 Census was taken). Of note there is an Isabella McKenzie who married an Alexander Gibb in Forfar in 1856 (have not determined a connection).


Hope this helps. I will try to see if I can establish if my Alexander was "of" Guthrie or Angus.

Scott

[Forfarian]

In the baptism register for several of Alexander and Ann's children he is stated as "in Couthils". I don't know what that means (a place I assume?)

Yes, Colthills or Couthills is a place, and the implication of 'in Couthills' is that Alexander was a tenant, not the owner, of the place.

Have you lost the long correspondence you and I had last year about exactly this point? I wrote to you almost exactly a year ago

This particular Colthill or Couthills was plainly in the parish of Guthrie, because the baptism of Alexander in 1803 was in Guthrie and the 1841 census record was also there.

See http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=56.6501&lon=-2.6951&layers=5

The enumeration district includes Hil(l)to(w)n, Hillside, Mains of Guthrie, Guthrie Castle, Kirkto(w)n, Newton, Mil(l/n)field, Millto(w)n, Heughhead, Glasterlaw, West Heughhead, East Colt Hills, Colthills, Cotton of Eastertown, Drumhead, Loanhead, Rockhead, Midloan, Loanmouth, Longland, Dubtown, Turin Muir, Pickerton, Bents, and Broadfaud. Listing these in the order in the 1841 census describes a rough circle around the east end of the parish, starting and finishing a kilometre or so north-west
of the kirk.

However several of these are not on the mid-Victorian map, including Colthills. On the map, East Mains and Woodside lie between Glasterlaw and Drumhead Wood, but they are not listed in the 1841 census. There are also a couple of unnamed cottages close to Heughhead.

I speculate that the unnamed cottages are West Heughhead, and that East Mains is East Colt Hills and Woodside is Colthills, or something like that. Or maybe the closest cottage to Heughhead
is West Heughhead, the next one East Colt Hills, East Mains being Colthills and Woodside being Drumhead. The only way to be sure is if there is a plan of Guthrie estates somewhere that names all the individual farms.

There are references to a similarly named place in the parish of Inverkeilor, but this is a red herring because by definition anywhere in the parish of Guthrie is not in the parish of Inverkeilor, and vice versa.

[McTeacher]

Thank you Forfarian for the detailed information. I remember our correspondence and that "Couthils" was in Guthrie as part of an estate but added the question mark beside "Couthils" just in case my recollection was foggy.


Further McKenzie - Gibb connection:

I noticed where Alex and Ann's son-in-law Alexander Gibb was born in Milnfield, Guthrie the same place listed for Alexander and Mary's first born James. As an aside, their daughter Jean was born in Haughhead, Guthrie.
 

[jennywren001]

Hi Scott,

Beginning to feel like I'm on the magic roundabout...

Can I take it as a given that you have seen the original 1841 census and that there is no ambiguity with regard to Alexander McKenzie's age.

The 'Cattle Dealer' information that would be coming from the death or marriage certificates of the children? If so do any of them deviate from 'Cattle Dealer' as per their father's occupation?

The Elizabeth McKenzie who married George Ritchie in Guthrie in 1823 looks (from the 1851 census at least) to have been born in Kingoldrum so does not appear to fit in with this family which is too bad as she was born around 1794...

I can find only two McKenzie/Gibb births in Guthrie that of James 1788 (prior to marriage of his parents) and Jean in 1790. On SP I can only find two deaths in Angus of McKenzies with mother's maiden name Gibb. That of a Jean (she married a James Carrie) and that of a James - ages at death tie in with those two births as do place of birth from the census. If there's a 'spare' Alexander I can't find him...

I've not followed through on the James McKenzie who married Ann Esplen in Guthrie in 1828 (Banns also called in Kinnell). He shouldn't be the 1788 born James as he was supposed to be single!
Jen

EDIT:Have ruled out the James McKenzie who married Ann Esplen - he was from Kirrie...
OK, cat now among pigeons...1851 census, born Guthrie 1815/16, I have two Charles McKenzies...one living Shell Croft, Forfar the other living Knowehead, Inverkeilor - BOTHER!