Roman Catholics born Selby 1780s - are Baptisms at Stourton?

[BushInn1746]

Hi Mark

Not quite sure which thread to drop the following snippets, but.....

Edward Burton (Sarah Russell's grandfather) was living in dwellings owned by Lady Stourton in 1781 and later Lord Petre   

Interestingly, in 1717 there are some Burton's of Selby in the West Yorkshire Roman Catholic Oath records and whilst browsing the following were listed in 1717:

Nathaniel Hudd
Roger Hudd
Samuel Hudd

Not sure what these snippets bring to the cause, but maybe worth noting for future reference

Goughy

Thank you.

It means those three Hudds of Selby were likely Catholics and/or Dissenting from the State (C of E) Church, but were forced to swear some type of oath to the Government.


Catholics refusing to take the oaths of loyalty were required to register their names and estates at quarter sessions or face the seizure of their property. The Forfeited Estates Commission was responsible for overseeing the seizure of the estates and details can be found in the close rolls held at TNA


They didn't really want to and Hardwicke's Act meant they felt partly forced against their will, into getting into bed with the State Church of England, when it came to marrying.


When it came to marrying, they had to make an Allegation and Bond (because we won't attend the State Church for worship, nor attend worship three Sundays in a row before Marriage), but back then everyone (except those exempted or Special License) were forced by Act to marry in a State Church.

I doubt very much my George Hood went to a Parish Church (except when he was compelled to by Law on his Marriage day), which possibly accounts for no witness signature on any other Parish Church Marriages.

Upbringing, is to have deep respect for our Queen and H.M. Law.

Mark

[dobfarm]

Hi Mark

Not quite sure which thread to drop the following snippets, but.....

Edward Burton (Sarah Russell's grandfather) was living in dwellings owned by Lady Stourton in 1781 and later Lord Petre   

Interestingly, in 1717 there are some Burton's of Selby in the West Yorkshire Roman Catholic Oath records and whilst browsing the following were listed in 1717:

Nathaniel Hudd
Roger Hudd
Samuel Hudd

Not sure what these snippets bring to the cause, but maybe worth noting for future reference

Goughy

Thank you.

It means those three Hudds of Selby were likely Catholics and/or Dissenting from the State (C of E) Church, but were forced to swear some type of oath to the Government.


Catholics refusing to take the oaths of loyalty were required to register their names and estates at quarter sessions or face the seizure of their property. The Forfeited Estates Commission was responsible for overseeing the seizure of the estates and details can be found in the close rolls held at TNA


They didn't really want to and Hardwicke's Act meant they felt partly forced against their will, into getting into bed with the State Church of England, when it came to marrying.


When it came to marrying, they had to make an Allegation and Bond (because we won't attend the State Church for worship, nor attend worship three Sundays in a row before Marriage), but back then many were forced by Act to marry in a State Church.

I doubt very much my George Hood went to a Parish Church, which possibly accounts for no witness signature on any Parish Church Marriages.

Upbringing, is to have deep respect for our Queen and H.M. Law.

Mark

If your talking about George Hood who married 1815 died 1845 in Selby parish (most likely in Selby Abbey) his marriage had witnesses and all his children baptised in Selby parish C of E (again Selby Abbey the likely venue)

Unless you mean George Hood D 1845 did not sign as a witness to any marriage in Selby parish or other parishes but that does not mean he did not attend church at Selby Abbey

[sallyyorks]

Hi Mark

Not quite sure which thread to drop the following snippets, but.....

Edward Burton (Sarah Russell's grandfather) was living in dwellings owned by Lady Stourton in 1781 and later Lord Petre   

Interestingly, in 1717 there are some Burton's of Selby in the West Yorkshire Roman Catholic Oath records and whilst browsing the following were listed in 1717:

Nathaniel Hudd
Roger Hudd
Samuel Hudd

Not sure what these snippets bring to the cause, but maybe worth noting for future reference

Goughy

Thank you.

It means those three Hudds of Selby were likely Catholics and/or Dissenting from the State (C of E) Church, but were forced to swear some type of oath to the Government.


Catholics refusing to take the oaths of loyalty were required to register their names and estates at quarter sessions or face the seizure of their property. The Forfeited Estates Commission was responsible for overseeing the seizure of the estates and details can be found in the close rolls held at TNA


They didn't really want to and Hardwicke's Act meant they felt partly forced against their will, into getting into bed with the State Church of England, when it came to marrying.


When it came to marrying, they had to make an Allegation and Bond (because we won't attend the State Church for worship, nor attend worship three Sundays in a row before Marriage), but back then everyone (except those exempted or Special License) were forced by Act to marry in a State Church.

I doubt very much my George Hood went to a Parish Church (except when he was compelled on his Marriage day), which possibly accounts for no witness signature on any other Parish Church Marriages.

Upbringing, is to have deep respect for our Queen and H.M. Law.

Mark

Not sure I agree with your last few  paragraphs.

I am not sure everyday English Catholics cared much if they married in the CofE (a reformed Catholic church) or not.

I think people were more easy going and flexible about religion.

It wasn't unusual for Catholics to be baptised, married or buried in the CofE

[BushInn1746]

Thanks dobfarm

His wife Sarah may have pushed for their baptisms.

I feel George Hood has married Sarah Russell an Anglican / C of E, but George possibly not one himself.

If George Hood was C of E, he could simply have attended the Parish Church three Sundays in a row, no need for a Marriage Allegation or Bond, as he very easily satisfied the residence requirement in the Parish of Selby and did not marry for 2 months, so not a hurried marriage either.

Mark

[BushInn1746]

Hello

I am very sorry, but religious beliefs 220 years ago were very far from easy going and cosy, if you deviated from the State Church of England, you could be persecuted and put into prison for your beliefs.

I also agree some were religion hopping and changing to other faiths, making the Genealogists job (our research) very difficult for some.

Mark

[sallyyorks]

Hello

I am very sorry, but religious beliefs 220 years ago were very far from easy going and cosy, if you deviated from the State Church of England, you could be persecuted and put into prison for your beliefs.

Not sure what you mean by 'deviate from the State Church of England'?
Do you have any examples of everyday people being persecuted and put in prison for their religious beliefs 200 years ago?

[BushInn1746]

In the 16th Century Henry VIII made the Church of England the State Church.

Those who had their own strong religious convictions contrary to the Church, could be hounded, shunned, refused dole (poor relief), etc.

1650 to 1689 Sufferings of the People Called Quakers (1689 was an early Act of Toleration)
https://archive.org/stream/collectionofsuff01bess

I understand, only the Quakers and Jews were the first to get some limited toleration.


Somewhere on the internet there is an old book, which mentions the other faiths such as Baptists and others asking the Quakers about their Legal battles and how they got their toleration to practice, because these others wanted the same religious freedom themselves.


Selby Catholics met in the Steward's house of the Lord of the Manor 1780s.

Some owners of Manors like Lord Petre were Catholic and often assisted fellow Catholics, Presbyterians and Protestants who stuck firm to their beliefs, with somewhere to live, some work, when they felt compelled to move to another town.

Looking at the Returns of Papists Volume 2 1767 (covering much of Yorkshire) and their ages, with their years of residency, few Catholics seem to have been resident in the same place since birth.

Also note "reputed priest" in some Yorkshire places, in the "Returns of Papists 1767" Survey of Catholics and if this Catholic Record Society publication is a true transcription of the original documents, it suggests that the local Catholic Priest was NOT publicly known and also suggests the Catholics may be meeting in secret OR wishing to keep their priest secret at least in 1767.


The Catholics did not get their formal Relief and religious freedom until the late 18th Century.
Papists Act 1778 - First Act for Roman Catholic Relief.
Roman Catholic Relief Act 1791 - granted toleration for their schools & places of worship.
Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 - Act came about, after the repeal of Penal Laws.

Mark

[sallyyorks]

Thank you for your detailed reply but it doesn't address my original question, reply#41

In the 16th Century Henry VIII made the Church of England the State Church.

Those who had their own strong religious convictions contrary to the Church, could be hounded, shunned, refused dole (poor relief), etc.

Who would be 'hounding' and 'shunning' catholic's in the north of England at this time?
The north was 'catholic', most of the northern landowners were catholic and many would remain so long after Henry's death. There are written accounts of catholic priests openly walking about villages and towns.

The Pilgrimage of Grace (led, as you probably know, by a Selby area man), was a rebellion by northern nobles and gentry. Henry crushed the rebellion and the dissolution of the monasteries continued, but he also had to concede to some of the rebels demands, Ten Articles, to keep peace in the catholic north.

Elizabeth went even further by refusing to follow in her fathers footsteps of bloody reprisal on the peasantry. She rightly believed that even though they might be catholic, they remained loyal to her. The Revolt of the Northern Earls did not have the majority support of the northern catholic peasantry.
Whatever their religion, people adapted to the changes. They might have quietly or even loudly been of the 'old faith' but they also, on the whole, remained patriotic. Elizabeth was popular and known for her tolerance, even in the north.

1650 to 1689 Sufferings of the People Called Quakers (1689 was an early Act of Toleration)
https://archive.org/stream/collectionofsuff01bess

I understand, only the Quakers and Jews were the first to get some limited toleration.


Somewhere on the internet there is an old book, which mentions the other faiths such as Baptists and others asking the Quakers about their Legal battles and how they got their toleration to practice, because these others wanted the same religious freedom themselves.


Selby Catholics met in the Steward's house of the Lord of the Manor 1780s.

Some owners of Manors like Lord Petre were Catholic and often assisted fellow Catholics, Presbyterians and Protestants who stuck firm to their beliefs, with somewhere to live, some work, when they felt compelled to move to another town.

Looking at the Returns of Papists Volume 2 1767 (covering much of Yorkshire) and their ages, with their years of residency, few Catholics seem to have been resident in the same place since birth.

Also note "reputed priest" in some Yorkshire places, in the "Returns of Papists 1767" Survey of Catholics and if this Catholic Record Society publication is a true transcription of the original documents, it suggests that the local Catholic Priest was NOT publicly known and also suggests the Catholics may be meeting in secret OR wishing to keep their priest secret at least in 1767.


The Catholics did not get their formal Relief and religious freedom until the late 18th Century.
Papists Act 1778 - First Act for Roman Catholic Relief.
Roman Catholic Relief Act 1791 - granted toleration for their schools & places of worship.
Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 - Act came about, after the repeal of Penal Laws.

Mark

Not sure what you are inferring by 'few Catholics seem to have been resident in the same place since birth...'?

England's attitudes to religion were complicated, influencing rebellion and even civil war, but, after Elizabeth, there was no widespread persecution and slaughter of innocents, as was seen on the continent. The Church of England is unique, it is a reformed catholic church, it is a compromise and 'the people' understood that

[BushInn1746]

Thank you for your detailed reply but it doesn't address my original question, reply#41

In the 16th Century Henry VIII made the Church of England the State Church.

Those who had their own strong religious convictions contrary to the Church, could be hounded, shunned, refused dole (poor relief), etc.

Who would be 'hounding' and 'shunning' catholic's in the north of England at this time?
The north was 'catholic', most of the northern landowners were catholic and many would remain so long after Henry's death. There are written accounts of catholic priests openly walking about villages and towns.

The Pilgrimage of Grace (led, as you probably know, by a Selby area man), was a rebellion by northern nobles and gentry. Henry crushed the rebellion and the dissolution of the monasteries continued, but he also had to concede to some of the rebels demands, Ten Articles, to keep peace in the catholic north.

Elizabeth went even further by refusing to follow in her fathers footsteps of bloody reprisal on the peasantry. She rightly believed that even though they might be catholic, they remained loyal to her. The Revolt of the Northern Earls did not have the majority support of the northern catholic peasantry.
Whatever their religion, people adapted to the changes. They might have quietly or even loudly been of the 'old faith' but they also, on the whole, remained patriotic. Elizabeth was popular and known for her tolerance, even in the north.

1650 to 1689 Sufferings of the People Called Quakers (1689 was an early Act of Toleration)
https://archive.org/stream/collectionofsuff01bess

I understand, only the Quakers and Jews were the first to get some limited toleration.


Somewhere on the internet there is an old book, which mentions the other faiths such as Baptists and others asking the Quakers about their Legal battles and how they got their toleration to practice, because these others wanted the same religious freedom themselves.


Selby Catholics met in the Steward's house of the Lord of the Manor 1780s.

Some owners of Manors like Lord Petre were Catholic and often assisted fellow Catholics, Presbyterians and Protestants who stuck firm to their beliefs, with somewhere to live, some work, when they felt compelled to move to another town.

Looking at the Returns of Papists Volume 2 1767 (covering much of Yorkshire) and their ages, with their years of residency, few Catholics seem to have been resident in the same place since birth.

Also note "reputed priest" in some Yorkshire places, in the "Returns of Papists 1767" Survey of Catholics and if this Catholic Record Society publication is a true transcription of the original documents, it suggests that the local Catholic Priest was NOT publicly known and also suggests the Catholics may be meeting in secret OR wishing to keep their priest secret at least in 1767.


The Catholics did not get their formal Relief and religious freedom until the late 18th Century.
Papists Act 1778 - First Act for Roman Catholic Relief.
Roman Catholic Relief Act 1791 - granted toleration for their schools & places of worship.
Roman Catholic Relief Act 1829 - Act came about, after the repeal of Penal Laws.

Mark

Not sure what you are inferring by 'few Catholics seem to have been resident in the same place since birth...'?

England's attitudes to religion were complicated, influencing rebellion and even civil war, but, after Elizabeth, there was no widespread persecution and slaughter of innocents, as was seen on the continent. The Church of England is unique, it is a reformed catholic church, it is a compromise and 'the people' understood that

Hi Sally

The Honourable James Talbot 1769 was tried at the Old Bailey for exercising his Office (James Robert Talbot).
The last prosecution for celebrating Mass was in 1771. [168 years after Elizabeth I]
Also other restrictions imposed upon Catholics.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8GrGCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT547&lpg=PT547&dq=%22James+Talbot%22+%22Old+Bailey%22+1769&source=bl&ots=LCZe76YUd_&sig=yatN1oKVv0q_bIHisOgbVCbNaMk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwuI7qu_DWAhWFDxoKHaf3DkMQ6AEISTAL

I see the restrictions and trials imposed, for following Catholic religious convictions, as a type of persecution.

Regards Mark