Thomas Grogan and Family from Beagh, Roscommon

[cullenfamily]

Here is the second of my greatgrandparents on my mother's side of the family.
As with my Dolan side, the discrepancies between the 1901 and 1911 are staggering.
However my main goal in posting this is to find other Grogan researchers who may be linked to my side of the family and/or someone who has the transcripts of the Beagh or Kilteevan births or marriages and may be able to confirm which dates are correct.
The 1901 Census return form lists
Thomas Grogan head of the family 50
Winifred Grogan wfe 36
Patrick Grogan 11
Mary Kate Grogan 9 MY GRANDMOTHER
John Grogan 7
Winifred Grogan 2
As in the case of my other greastgrandparents, the returns for the 2011 Census could not be further from accurate.
1911:
Thomas Grogan head of the family 66 (6 years older than he should be)
Winifred Grogan wfe 52 (6 years older than she should be)
Patrick Grogan 21 (accurate)
Mary Kate Grogan 18 MY GRANDMOTHER (one year younger than she should be)
John Grogan 16 (one year younger than he should be)
Winifred Grogan 12 (accurate)
and three further children born after 1901:
Margaret Mary Grogan 9
Thomas Grogan 7
Michael Grogan 5
Thomas and Winnie were married 23 years in 1911 and 7 children survived out of 8.
Winifred Grogan's maiden name is uncertain but family sources seem to indicate that she was Winifred Creighton from Loughglynn. The Creighton's had a very large farm and Thomas Grogan was employed as a worker on the farm and that was how he is said to have met my grandmother Mary Kate.
An interesting observation between the 1901 and the 1911 Census return form is that they were both filled out in a different hand. The 1901 form refers to the wife as Winifred while the 1911 lists her as Winnie.
Thomas Grogan's signature also differs from one census to the next - whether one form was filled in by his wife and other by he, or his handwriting may have changed in between.
It is a shame that Census forms of that era never asked the wife's maiden name. How helpful that would be 100 years later when we are all finding it hard to put together an accurate family history.
The 1911 confirms that both Thomas and Winifred were born in Roscommon.
The childen of Thomas and Winifred Grogan:
according to family sources (not proven)
Patrick (also known as Pakie) emigrated to the US and never returned. But before he fled to the States, he went to the Bank and borrowed money against a farm in Clooneyvendon owned by his father. But he never repaid the money and his father, Thomas, had to buy it back from the bank.
Mary Kate (my grandmother) married Peter Dolan and lived in Clooneyvendon, outside Castlerea.
John married –––––––– Healy from Bradford, England.
Michael married Jo Kelly and lived in the home farm at Beagh.
If anyone can help me with any of the above I would be very grateful indeed.  Hopefully someone who has access to the birth records may be a very valuable contact, or fellow Grogan researchers who may be able to go back in generations even further.

[myluck!]

Hi

(1) I wouldn't mind the discrepancies in ages as many people at that time were unsure of their accurate ages and as pensions became a priority some aged or for others, especially women, who still hoped to marry they became younger!

(2) Often it was the enumerator who filled in the census return which is why there is a difference in handwriting.

In 1901 if you look at the constable's handwriting and compare the P in Philip to that in Patrick who is listed and then look at the T in Thomas' signature and where he is listed - I don't think Thomas completed the form and there is a strong possibility that the constable did - LINK

In 1911 it could well be Thomas' own hand it is definitely not the constable when you compare the k at the end of his name to that in Patrick who is listed! - LINK

(3) quote:
Winifred Grogan's maiden name is uncertain but family sources seem to indicate that she was Winifred Creighton from Loughglynn. The Creighton's had a very large farm and Thomas Grogan was employed as a worker on the farm and that was how he is said to have met my grandmother Mary Kate.

I presume you meant to say "met your greatgrandmother Winifred"?


As for information 

Thomas GROGAN of Behy; bachelor; aged 30; Father Patrick deceased
married in Loughglynn Church on Feb 21 1889
Winifred CREATON of Aughaloor; spinster; aged 25; Father Andrew
witnesses Thomas CONCANNON and Catherine CREATON
LINK to civil record

Children's births within this list of civil registrations - LINK
Eight children are:
1 Patrick b. Feb 20 1890 bap. Jan 22 1890 Sp Michael CRETAN and Anna GROGAN
2 Mary Catherine b. Nov 28 1901 bap. Oct 31 1891 Sp Patrick KENNY and Brigid FINAN
3 John b. May 17 1894 bap. Jun 02 1894 Patrick GUNNING and Joan KENNY
4 Anne Julia b. Jun 28 1896 bap. Jul 04 1896 Sp Patrick SCALLY and Anna KENNY
       probable death 1900 aged 3 - LINK
5 Winifred b. Sept 25 1898 bap. Sept 23 1898 Andrew GARA and Anna CREIGHTON
6 Margaret Mary b. Jul 16 1901
7 Thomas b. Nov 26 1902
8 Michael b. Jul 01 1904


some look as if they were baptised before they were born! This is not an error, there was a fine for a late registration and often the date given was made up to ensure it fell within three months - I have several in my own family which is quite annoying for most software packages!

Marriage and baptisms are in Loughglynn Parish but are not listed on nli.ie site as it stops at 1881

[myluck!]

Winfred CREIGHTON was baptised in Loughglynn RC Church Jul 03 1861 - LINK
Father Andrew CREIGHTON; Mother Mary MANION; Sponsors Andrew CREIGHTON & Elizabeth JENNING
(listed half way down left hand side)

[myluck!]

There was a Thomas GROGAN baptised in Ballinlough in 1855 which is a good possibility
Dec 9 1855
Father Patrick GROGAN; Mother Mary BYRNE; Sp Thomas MORAN

edited to add:
This would require more information to confirm as there were at least three Patrick GROGAN's in the area at the time

(1) married to Mary Connally
(2) married to Mary Crosby - they had a Thomas in 1841 which feels a little early but...
(3) married to Mary Byrne/Beirne - best match again but...

[cullenfamily]

Thank you MyLuck,
You have given me great information. I appreciate your time.
I  will go through and match all that you have given me and order the certs for verification.
How do I go about getting your private email as I would like to send you something that may be of interest to you.
I don't want to get into trouble by listing my email here as I am not sure you are allowed and I don't see a button for a private message. As you can gather I am new to this group.

[myluck!]

the icon on the left under your name/nom-de-plume that looks like a person is to allow private messages be sent - if you click on this icon you will be able to send a person a direct message

No problem on info! glad to be of help

[cullenfamily]

The above dates you have given me seem to match accurately for the children born and listed on the 1901 census,  even the child that died fits in between the others on the timeframe. And all have either a Creaton or a Kenny as a sponsor. Kenny is named on three separate births (Joan, Patrick and Anna) which might suggest there is a relation there - although they might just be very close friends or neighbours.
Margaret Mary born a few months after the 1901 census is also accurate at 9years on the 1911 census form (again just short of her 10th birthday).
The two younger (Thomas and Michael, listed on the 1911 census) are listed as being 7 and 5 at the time.
I notice the two births you listed (1902 and 1904) do not match as they are about years out and neither have the sponsors listed, but the mother of the child is Creighton in each case. I'm not suggesting these are not correct, just surmising at this stage.
ALL IN ALL - GREAT FINDS! I would be happy to just try to acquire the latter two birth certs to be more certain.

[myluck!]

The last two I would be most happy with as they are from the civil records
Sorry I omitted a link - now included to full list of Grogans 1880-1910 in Castlerea LINK
Only three show Creighton as the Mother's name but not all online records have the mother's name however the actual records do

[cullenfamily]

The marriage of Thomas Grogan and Winifred Creaton also looks a match, especially with the marriage place of Loughglynn. How accurate are ages found on marriage certs?
If the ages are correct then Thomas was born circa 1859 (depending on what month his birthday fell) and Winifred would have been born in 1864 (again depending on her exact month of birth).
Neither of the birth dates match that on the Census as Thomas is listed as 50 on the 1901 form and 66 on the 1911 form, whereas he should be closer to 42 and 52 respectfully - instead he is listed as 50 and 66 on both returns – a difference of 8 years and 14 years.
Winifred was listed as 36 on the 1901 form and 52 on the 1911 form whereas (if the marriage cert has listed their ages correctly) she should be 37 and 47 respectfully.
Her age on the 1901 form is ACCURATE as she would be 37 the July after the 1901 census date.
So assuming that is correct, she must be aware of her date or birth but in 1911, added a few years (+5). Again, I am only trying to see how far out the matches are.
It would be nice Wiinifred's birth was accurate as her mother and father are listed and it gives me another generation.
I have never heard of Aughaloor. Is that near Loughglynn?