Richard Ernest Clift born Cheltenham 1866

[Capetown]

It may be a case of ordering the birth certificate ..... see what the marriage certificate says....

? is there a WILLAVISE connection re previous CLIFFE marriage

Family Search

On the 1871 census for Cheltenham

John WILLAVISE - aged 52 - born Cheltenham
Maria - 45 - born Prestbury
children
Mary Ann - daughter - 21 - born Prestbury
John - son - 16 - born Prestbury
Lucy - daughter - 14 - born Charlton Kings
Ruth - daughter - 12 - born Charlton Kings
Jesse - daughter - 7 - born Charlton Kings
Richard - son - 4 born Leckhampton
Richard  Wrilingham Willavise - son - aged 0 born Cheltenham

(2 sons called Richard???)

[ColeshillCol]

I've just ordered Richard Cliff's birth certificate.  They say I should receive it within ten days.  The Willavase name is a completely new one on me. 

I'm thinking that if Louisa IS Richard Cliff (or Cliffe's?) mother, then I should try and locate her birth certificate.  The way this is going, she'll probably turn out to be a Willavase! 

[chempat]

Willavise in 1861
Living in Charlton Kings, Cheltenham
Piece  1794  Folio 65   Page Number 14
John Willavise   45  Ampney Crucis Gloucestershire
Maria Willavise   43  Prestbury
Sarah Willavise                 12  All children born Charlton Kings
Henry John Willavise   7
Lucy Ruth Willavise           4
Elenor Ruth Willavise   1

On that 1871 census, Mary Ann Willavise is down as married.

[ColeshillCol]

A bit confused now!   

The Richard aged 4 in the 1871 census matches well with my great grandfather, who, I believe, was born in 1867.  However, based on this census, am I to assume his surname was Willavise not Cliff(e)?
Also, Louisa Cliffe doesn't seem to be on the 1871 census - I was beginning to assume she was Richard's mother. 

The two Willavise 'families' don't seem to match in any way:
In the 1861 census, John and Maria have four kids
Sarah
Henry John
Lucy Ruth
Elenor Ruth

but in the 1871 census they seem to have a completely different family!  :
Mary Ann
John
Lucy
Jesse
Richard 1
Richard 2

Yet, John and Maria DO seem to be exactly the same people in both the census returns.

Baffling, or have I missed something?

[Capetown]

Have sent you a PM - just been up the library and have your Richard CLIFF sorted.  Will put info on Rootschat asap.

[Capetown]

Marriage at St Paul's Church, in the Parish of Cheltenham 27 December 1885

Richard CLIFF - aged 19 - Bachelor, occupation: Porter, no father's name
25 Albert Street

Emily Charlotte FLOYD - aged 18 - Spinster,
15 Albert Street
father: Henry FLOYD - Farmer

witnesses: Arthur James BEAMS and Fanny Elizabeth BEAMS

---

Marriage - St Peters, Cheltenham

15 February 1875

Henry John WILLAVISE - aged 22, Bachelor, occupation: Whitesmith - father John WILLAVISE, Coachman
Sun Street

Mary Ann CLIFFE - aged 25, Spinster,
Bath Parade (where she is on the early census)
father: Daniel CLIFFE - Gardener

witnesses: Albert and Fanny BALLINGHAM


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Baptism at St Luke Cheltenham 23 February 1879

in the margin is written (Adult) - as is the baptism above

Richard CLIFF - mother Mary Ann

abode: Union Workhouse


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Gloucestershirebmd

Henry J WILLAVISE - registered 1853 - Cheltenham, mother's maiden name: NEATHER

and siblings:

Fanny - 1851
Lucy R - 1856
Eleanor - 1859
Jesse - 1862

---

There is a death on Freebmd

Henry John WILLAVISE - aged 24, December 1878 - Atcham District Shropshire - and this death is mentioned on the WILLAVISE family tree on Ancestry.

? It could be that Mary Ann CLIFF/WILLAVISE, after the death of Henry in 1878 - had to go into the Workhouse with Richard in 1879.



John WELLAVISE married Maria NEATHER (tree on Ancestry)

this might be your Richard on the 1881 census in Cheltenham

2a Oriel Walk

WILLAVISE

Maria - 58 - Laundress - born Cheltenham
Lucy - day - 24 Upholsteress - born Charlton Kings
Eleanor - dau - 21 - Servant Domestic
Queenie - grand-daughter - born London
Richard WILLAVISE - son - aged 14, Errand Boy - born Cheltenham Gloucestershire

(as before - on the 1871 census, John & Maria WILLAVISE - had : Richard WILLAVISE son aged 4 and Richard Wrilingham WILLAVISE - son aged 0)  - 'John' their son was aged 17 in 1871 c1854.

?May be Henry 'John' WILLAVISE is the father of Richard.

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1861 Census, Charlton Kings, Glos

WILLAVISE

John - 45 - born Gloucestershire
Maria - 43 - born Prestbury, Glos
Sarah - 12 - all born Charlton Kings
Henry John - 7
Lucy Ruth - 4
Elenor Ruth - 1

--



1871 Census, Cheltenham

Mary Ann CLIFF - aged 24, Lodginghouse Keeper, born Morcott, Rutlandshire

says on her marriage certificate her father was Daniel

1851 Census, Morcott, Rutland

CLIFFE

Daniel - 35 - born Morcott, Rutland (farm labourer)
Tanny - 32 - born Ashwell, Rutland
Mary - 6 - born Morcott, Rutland
Elisabeth - 4 - born Morcott, Rutland
Lettia WATSON - 22 - visitor, born Ashwell, Rutland

---


It's a start

[ColeshillCol]

You're doing a stunning job!  Thanks again.

I don't know whether it's likely that Henry John Willavise would have been Richard's father.  He was only 13 when Richard was born in 1866.  Was it common for boys of 13 to father a child in those days?  I have no idea.

What I think MAY have happened is this:

- Mary Ann CLIFFE gave birth to Richard when she was 16, illegitimately
- She married Henry John WILLAVISE in 1875 when she was 25
- Maybe Richard took Henry John's name and started calling himself WILLAVISE???
- Henry John died in 1878
- As you suggest, Mary and Richard had to go into the workhouse
- Richard was baptised in the workhouse as Richard CLIFF in 1879 at the age of 13 or 14
- HOWEVER, someone called Richard WILLAVISE pops up on the 1881 Census who seems to be about the right age.  The younger Richard (Wrilingham) Willavise would only have been 10 in 1881
- Richard CLIFF Married Emily Charlotte FLOYD in 1885 at the age of 19
- Richard and Emily had their first child, Dorothy CLIFT in 1889 (I knew her, she was my 'aunty Dol')
- My grandfather Richard CLIFT was born in 1891

[Capetown]

Just added to my 'sage' re Mary Ann CLIFFE in Cheltenham - born Rutland etc.

Up until the 1929 Marriage Act (which made marriages under 16 years of age void)

Girls could marry from aged 12 and Boys from aged 14 (think it was that way round - mostly by permission)

My x Grandmother married in 1824 was only aged 13 - and had her first child not long afterwards.