Author Topic: Birth look up please  (Read 2028 times)

Offline melsimba

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Birth look up please
« on: Wednesday 10 August 16 01:32 BST (UK) »
 John Forbes  born in Banchory Ternan , Kincardine , 1853 . He is 8  years old in 1861 living with Ann Forbes as grand son , I have looked in Scotlands pjeople but can not find proof of who his father is or if in fact if his mother is the daughter Ann Forbes ( Same name as her mother ) . He is listed in 1871 as working in Skeene , parish . I can not find anything on his birth and would like a little help . 
                                                                                                       Thank you     Melanie

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Online Rosinish

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Re: Birth look up please
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 10 August 16 03:22 BST (UK) »
Hi Melanie,

Can you list who John's grandparents were with grandmother Ann's maiden name, when/where they married & list names of all children born to them with yrs/places of birth please?

Are you sticking rigidly with 1853 as his birth year as you really need to widen the window 2 yrs either side at least.

What was the area named in 1861 where you found John?
Do you have the details of that census please?
Who else was in the household & what were their ages?

Did Ann have a son George?

If so, have you considered him to be the father?...

Different area of Kincardine (Nigg) although I haven't looked into this

John Forbes b 1852

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBHG-7YJ

Have you found where children are on later census'?


Annie

South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie, MacDonald, MacInnes, MacIntyre, MacKinnon, Steele, Walker

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, MacKinnon, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

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Offline melsimba

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Re: Birth look up please
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 10 August 16 19:46 BST (UK) »
   Hello Annie
     Johns grandparents were Ann Thow  , born 1799 Angus , and John Forbes 1799 Glentannar , but he died sometime between 1851 and 1859 ,( haven't found his death certificate yet ,but thats another brickwall )   
        In 1861 the widow Ann Forbes  was living in Charleston ,Aboyne  with her daughter  Ann born in Birse 1828 ,  and the Grandson John who is 8 years born in 1853 ,  ,  John listed as being born in Banchory Ternan  , Kincardineshire,.
        I have looked for him on Scotlands People , with no luck . If he was an illigitimate son would there not be a church record ?
         

Offline snowolf

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Re: Birth look up please
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 07 March 17 10:31 GMT (UK) »
Hi  found this if any good ,

                                     1841 census = Toll House,Aboyne / Glentanner
John Forbes..(40) Toll keeper
Ann Forbes (40)
Ann Forbes...(12) daughter
David Forbes...(8)..son
Mary  Forbes...(3) daughter.

                                       1851 census = 28 Charleston road,Charleston
John Forbes..(52)...Toll collector....(b) Glentanner,
Ann Forbes...(52)..wife..(b) ...Glenesk.
Ann....daughter....(26)..daughter...(b) Birse.
David...son ..(18)...(b) birse.
Mary...daughter (13)....(b) Aboyne.

    was Ann definitly little johns mother ???? or could he have been David Forbes son ? and living with his grandmother and aunt Ann in 1861??

cheers :)
Snowolf
"Durward"... (logie-pert, Dundee, Scotland,& Sydney ,Australia ,New Hampshire , U.S.A ). "Johnston"..(Logie-pert, "Smith".."Arbuthnott/ monifieth/Montrose/laurencekirk , Scotland) "Kennedy"..(Dundee,Comrie) Scotland & Australia."Marshall"..(alloa, Clackmannanshire , Scotland).
" Myles".. ( Scone, Perthshire , Scotland).
"Edward".. (Kincardneshire ,Dundee,Scotland),  Taylor..(Garvock,Kincardineshire,Scotland) , "Young"..(Kincardineshire),Scotland.
"Robertson"..Perthshire ,Scotland)

Offline melsimba

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Re: Birth look up please
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 07 March 17 22:22 GMT (UK) »
Hi ,  well this family must have done something which I can not figure out ,I will explain .....Firstly , I. have those same census records ,in 1871 I did find John Forbes about 18 working in Skene who was born in Banchory Ternan after that there is no trace .  He very well could be Davids son , but for the life of me I cant find a birth record for him .  Now here is where it gets complicated , Mary Forbes had a illegitimate child in April 1853 ,.baptized as James Gordon  .
But in 1861 and 1871 there is suddenly a Ann Gordon  as her child ,then no trace of Ann , I thought for a while possibly Mary and Ann gor pregnant by the same man Peter Gordon but he only choose to acknowledge one child .
I really don't know..........I am open to theories 😀

Offline Designer Jeans

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Re: Birth look up please
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 08 March 17 22:12 GMT (UK) »
Well, here goes, given the constraints that I only have access to free stuff and know little about the Scottish system other than civil registration didn't being until 1/1/1855 ...

Also living with the family in 1851 was Peter Gordon, age 40, wood merchant, born Crathie

1861 census Toll House, Charlestown (4 rooms)
Forbes Ann Hd 64 Toll Collector b Angus, Glenesk
Forbes Ann dau 26 b Aberdeenshire, Birse
Forbes John g/son 8 b Kincardineshire, Banchory Ternan
Duncan William boarder 41 b Aberdeenshire, St Nicholas
(freecen)

8/4/1853 Aboyne birth of James Gordon son of Peter Gordon and Mary Forbes
21/8/1853 Aboyne christening of James Gordon son of Peter Gordon and Mary Forbes
(familysearch)

Marriage 26/11/1859 Aboyne Mary Forbes and George Tough (familysearch)

1861 census Tollhouse Course, Coull (3 rooms)
Tough George Hd 27  Ag Lab/Toll Keeper b Premnay
Tough Mary Wife 23 Ag Lab wife b Aboyne
Tough Mary day 7m Ag Lab dau b Coull
Gordon Ann stepdau 7 Scholar b Aboyne
Reid William boarder 28 Ag Lab b Cluny
(freecen)

Aberdeen and North East Scotland FHS has an index to Aboyne MI's
Stone 87 John Forbes no date

findmypast newspapers has "Montrose, Arbroath and Brechin Review" 27/8/1852 Deeside Gathering - 2nd place David Forbes, Aboyne (tossing the caber or similar), but nothing for John Forbes

There are lots of bits of this jigsaw missing
John Forbes death and burial 1851-1859
What happened to his widow Ann after 1861
What happened to his daughter Ann and son David
What happened to Peter Gordon
Where/when was Ann Gordon (circa 1854) born

My feeling is that the lodger Peter Gordon and teenage Mary Forbes had two children, James and Ann (hopefully not child abuse).  Peter died/did a runner.  Mary Forbes went on to marry George Tough.  Her son James(John) was living with his grandmother in 1861.
She had her daughter Ann living with her and her new husband George Tough in 1861.

Thoughts
In 1851 John Forbes was a proprietor of house - what's that?
I can find Charlestown Road, Aboyne on Streetview, but can't identify number 28.  4 rooms is above average given the number of people living there.
A toll keeper would presumably need to be literate, numerate and honest!
A map of the tolls around Aboyne would be good

Aboyne and Banchory are very picturesque places and were popular with Queen Victoria in the 1850's

Over to you

Valerie
Derbys: Ward, Hopkinson, Bradley, Birds, Clarke, Taylor, Daykin, Gent, Vardy, Cotterill, Stocks, Godber, Dronfield, Charlesworth, Bonsall, Purseglove
Notts: Clarke, Freeman, Kitchen, Allcock, Housley, Swanwick, Berrisford, Farnsworth, Antcliffe
Staffs: Nutt, Bowring
Yorks: Holling, Fish, Kay, Hardy
Lincs: Plummer, Broughton, Wellbourne

Offline melsimba

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Re: Birth look up please
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 09 March 17 01:43 GMT (UK) »
Hello .
Ok here's what I do know
Ann Forbes is the only one listed in Charleston Aboyne in 1855 valuation records so John must have died between 1851 and 1855 .
Ann Forbes later dies in 1864
The daughter Ann Forbes married John Walker from Lumphanan parish in 1868 .but dies in 1869
I am thinking possibly Ann Gordon either died early or immigrated somewhere?.
The James Gordon /Ann Gordon mystery might be twins but have no clue .
Peter Gordon the father ended up in Bancory Ternan marrying Christina Brodie and had 3 sons then died in 1894.
Lingering questions :
Where did John Forbes 1826 (Anne older brother)
What happened to Ann Gordon
Who's parents are John Forbes 1853
What became of David Forbes .
This family is one brick wall after another

Offline Designer Jeans

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Re: Birth look up please
« Reply #7 on: Friday 10 March 17 08:59 GMT (UK) »
Hi

Yes, you are right, a tricky family who unfortunately are right on the cusp of civil registration.  I feel you need to be extremely methodical in your search and really get to know the area and the parish boundaries.  Genuki is great for this.  Then make a list of who/where/when to see where the unchecked black holes are.  It will probably keep you busy for years. 

I have discovered that a proprietor of houses owned land and houses which he rented out.  Ann Thow's parents appear to be John Thow and Jean Gordon, so was Peter Gordon a distant relative?  The Peter Gordon who married Christina Brodie would have been 60-70 when they had children.

Peter Gordon and Mary Forbes baptised a son, James Gordon at Aboyne on 21/8/1853.  The baby had been born on 8/4/1853.  If he was a twin the other baby would have been baptised at the same time.  So, unlikely to have been one of twins.  I wonder what got Peter and Mary into church for the baptism? Could it have been because Mary was already pregnant (with Ann) again?

We know that Mary Forbes (nee Thow) had a grandson who was 8 in the 1861 census, recorded as John Forbes.  We know that she had a grandson, James Gordon who would have been days short of his 8th birthday at the time of the 1861 census who hasn't been found recorded yet, or as a death or burial.  There is a good chance they are one and the same little boy.  Imagine how easy it would be to grow up in a family of Forbes and think of yourself as one and for James to become John over time

I'd also consider joining The Aberdeen and NE Scotland FHS for a year, nothing to lose and lots of local knowledge and maybe additional access to records.

Just curious, where do you fit into this family?  Heaps of Forbes, many extremely affluent, and no shortage of Thows around here as well.

Valerie
Derbys: Ward, Hopkinson, Bradley, Birds, Clarke, Taylor, Daykin, Gent, Vardy, Cotterill, Stocks, Godber, Dronfield, Charlesworth, Bonsall, Purseglove
Notts: Clarke, Freeman, Kitchen, Allcock, Housley, Swanwick, Berrisford, Farnsworth, Antcliffe
Staffs: Nutt, Bowring
Yorks: Holling, Fish, Kay, Hardy
Lincs: Plummer, Broughton, Wellbourne

Offline melsimba

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Re: Birth look up please
« Reply #8 on: Friday 10 March 17 17:54 GMT (UK) »
Hi
Yes Peter Gordon is a distant relative to the family as Ann Forbes (Thow) mother Jean Thow is a cousin to Peters Father .Incidently there is a ton of info on the Gordons of Crathie. Peters parents are Peter Gordon and Margaret Riach (or Reoch).
Mary Forbes and George Tough are my Great Great Grandparents .There son George Tough 1862  married Bathia Bannerman they moved to BC ,Canada and had my Grampa William Rettie Tough
The James/Ann Gordon dilemma  may be the situation where Peter the father only wanted to acknowledge one instead of paying for two , thats a theory someone mentioned ,but we still have missing information. Or he died after the baptism ?.
It has been years into this mystery but I won't quit until I find the paperwork .what do you think of the theory of David Forbes going to South Africa ?