Angel Street Manchester.

[element4]

Thanks Stan, Heywood and Viktoria for all that information, which brings out a mystery in itself why my ancestors were living in this big substantial house in 1846, together at their time of marriage.  The kind of big house that much later than their time got converted into a multiple occupation boarding house.  I have no census information for them in 1846 at that address, so can't find out the other occupants of the house.  Thomas seems to have had his own marine store, or rag and bone man store, sorting out scrap.

Maybe 30 Angel Street already was a multiple occupation boarding house in 1846, and its glory days were past?

[element4]

Hello,

If you search for Angel Meadow you can find several references to the area in academic or historical papers and both fiction and non-fiction.
In this article here you can read about Dean Kirby who recently brought out a book about his family connection.
I did hear the archaeologist speak about the discoveries made - it was very interesting.

Regards
Heywood

I read the article you link here.  It wouldn't load on my laptop but loaded easily on a mini iPad.  Dean Kirby can write, he puts academics to shame, his details bring it alive and bring into perspective the people like him who live in Manchester to this day, who their forebears were.  It sounds as though occupations like fishmonger and horse dealer were common, and also that a lot of people living there had escaped the Irish famine.

I never could find out what happened to my ancestors Thomas and Bridget Greenwood after the 1851 census, or Bridget's younger sister and brother, Betsy and John Ward, who were living with them in 1851.  Betsy Ward was listed on the 1851 census as a house servant age 23, so I might have better luck trying to trace what happened to her.

I think it is really important to understand these ancestors who came over from Ireland escaping the famine, and struggled in horrible sad conditions, yet leaving their descendants to carry their genes and probably a lot more.  There has to be more significance to their lives than the horrible conditions they struggled with from start to finish.

[heywood]

Interesting information

1851 2230/335/53

30 Angel Street unoccupied

30 Angel Street cellar

John Welsh 29 yrs Excavator b Ireland
Margaret Welsh 30 yrs Cap Maker b Ireland
Edward Welsh1 yr b Ireland
Mark McCann lodger 30 yrs Excavator b Ireland
Ellen McCann 30 yrs Waste ?..ker b Ireland

Most neighbouring houses are occupied by more than one family or have visitors /lodgers and generally from Ireland.

Glad you found the book information.

Heywood

[element4]

Interesting information

1851 2230/335/53

30 Angel Street unoccupied

30 Angel Street cellar

John Welsh 29 yrs Excavator b Ireland
Margaret Welsh 30 yrs Cap Maker b Ireland
Edward Welsh1 yr b Ireland
Mark McCann lodger 30 yrs Excavator b Ireland
Ellen McCann 30 yrs Waste ?..ker b Ireland

Most neighbouring houses are occupied by more than one family or have visitors /lodgers and generally from Ireland.

Glad you found the book information.

Heywood

Thanks, that information is very interesting.  I wonder if the illegible writing on the census for Ellen's occupation means "waste broker"?  It sounds like some variation on rag and bone dealer too.  My ancestor Thomas Greenwood's occupation was given on the 1851 census as "broker".  (On another source, his occupation was given as "card dealer", which sounds like something to do with the cotton industry, as elsewhere he was listed as a "carder").

[heywood]

I thought it looked a bit like 'waste maker' but yours sounds better 

The Greenwoods in 1851 are in Hulme - living in a court so there wouldn't be much room in the house I would imagine. They are not far from the 'Little Ireland' area which Engels wrote about but interestingly, where they are living - Cleggs Court, Medlock Street, there are not that many Irish born.

[Viktoria]

Just a joke but Angel Meadow was a "tough" area and people used to say it was so tough you could get mugged by nuns and police dogs  would only go in threes
Goulden St police station was the largest in Manchester. Violet Carson was born in the area and played the piano at Sharp St Mission. she played Ena Sharples in Coronation St.
 My father in law used to say he knew her "when she had nowt".

However there were some good people there and many remember the real family life which somehow parents, the mothers especially ,made for their kids.
Charter St mission must have been a beacon of light especially for young girls arriving at Victoria station to be servants.Pimps were waiting to draw them into a life of prostitution.
 Officials from Charter St Mission were also waiting as trains pulled in to inform the girls they could
stay there and find a job safely.
 
At Charter St  they had a little cubicle of their own, laundering facilities and  communally cooked for themselves.
They were thus able to take "daily " jobs instead of residential ones where all too often the master of the house told them things were part of their duties and if they did not comply they would be dismissed without a reference,a almost a death sentence in those days.They would be summarily dismissed anyway when it became obvious they were pregnant by the master.
Try telling that to the mistress of the house.
Charter StMission is  a fantastic place to visit but not sure if it is still open to the public.
They would give out clogs to needy children with a good breakfast Christmas morning.
A sad sign of the times---the clogs had burnt into the heels "NOT TO BE PAWNED"This was so they could not legally be accepted as a pledge  by pawnbrokers( perhaps even the famous Piggy Riley)
for drink money for importunate parents who would see their children go barefoot if they could get  drink.Late1800`s to early 1900`s or later,maybe living memory, my aunt  remembered  the Christmas clogs.She was born 1907 '
How fascinating anything to do with Angel  Meadow is.It is surely named after the dedication of the church which supposedly  was the ugliest in Manchester.All fields at one time but oh how quickly it changed.

If you are really interested try reading Engels` "The conditions of the working poor in Manchester"
Google it. You`ll be shocked and amazed- will also have such respect for your ancestors who came through that.
Cheerio thanks for reviving the topic.Viktoria.

[element4]

If you are really interested try reading Engels` "The conditions of the working poor in Manchester"
Google it. You`ll be shocked and amazed- will also have such respect for your ancestors who came through.

I found a free online pdf of this Engels book by googling it.  Interesting. 

[element4]

Viktoria, thank you for recommending that Engels book.  I opened the free online pdf file onto a mini iPad and sat in the sun in a park reading it offline yesterday.  The language, style and way of thinking seemed old fashioned but it was interesting, I remembered the bits about the young women factory workers having to leave their babies for horrendously long hours so they could work to survive, in the charge of children and old women who were worth the tiny amounts they were paid, and the high infant mortality. That they would be soaked with breast milk during the long hours they were working in the factories. And the bits about the working classes buying a lot of quack medicines as their health was poor.  (I remember in a museum seeing nineteenth century devices for feeding milk to babies, and reading that these were responsible for a lot of infant mortality).

It was strange, Engels seeped into my dreams last night and I could actually see these people.
Reading something like Engels which is outside my reading comfort zone, and a lot harder than passively consuming secondary historical sources, might have opened some sort of door into an ability to visualise what history was really like, a bit like how they say learning a second language is good for your brain.

I had been struggling to even find anything like a primary historical source, and I think Engels' book qualifies as that.

[Viktoria]

If you can get it ,try Asenath Nicholson`s book" Annals of the  Famine  in Ireland". . It was recommended by a RootsChatter some time ago and I got it as little Christmas present.
Lilliput Press.   62-63 Sitric Road.Arbour Hill.Dublin 7 .Ireland.SBN number1-874675-94-5 Edited by Maureen Murphy.Cost under £10,  I think.
Be warned it is  a four box of tissues read.

Isn`t RootChat a lovely site.Friendship, information, education and  a good laugh now and again.
 Irish funny coming  up.Irish people whose first language  is  Gaelic have a great logic in their manner of speaking English.

Elderly Irish chap leaning over his little garden  gate. Along comes an American tourist who asks
" Where does this road go to?"
" Sure an all sorr, the road doesn`t go anywhere , it stays here- but if you walk along it you will get to Ballydown".
See what I mean.
                    Viktoria.