Dead End - Any Help?

[aghadowey]

I'm looking for some proof that my John Joseph Tobin born 15 May 1895 was born in Ireland. I only have his son's stories from his mother that give me this info. One son says he was from the Thurles or Clonmel area of Tipperary and another says Kilkenny. I checked all the John Tobin's born in Ireland between the end of 1894 to the end of 1895, none match.

He married Emily Curran in Glasgow in 1930 and died in 1947. I have found him on the 1939 census but I can't find any information about him before 1930.

Both his marriage and death certificates say his father was Edward Tobin (blacksmith) and his mother was Margaret Dwyer. I can't find a marriage certificate for them in Ireland or anywhere else (checked Ancestry, Family Search, Roots Ireland, Find my Past, Scotland's People and a few other sites). I can't find their death certificates for certain either. They are both listed as deceased on John's marriage certificate so before 1930. I can't find these three names together on the 1901 or 1911 Irish censuses.

You need to consider that the information you are starting with is not accurate. If his parents died when he was young he could have given the wrong details when he got married and the informant used those same details for the death certificate.

[myluck!]

Long shot here but based on problems of literacy & accents etc

Could the person who wrote down his mother's maiden name as DWYER have misheard MAHER
Try saying the names out loud with flattened vowels

Just a thought for the pot!

[Sinann]

Long shot here but based on problems of literacy & accents etc

Could the person who wrote down his mother's maiden name as DWYER have misheard MAHER
Try saying the names out loud with flattened vowels

Just a thought for the pot!

Interesting though, considering the Ussher Maher issue earlier in the other thread.

I'm looking for information on a John Tobin born 6.11.1892 to an Edmond Tobin and Margaret Maher in Tipperary.

I'm trying to connect him to the Edmond Tobin and Margaret Ussher in Clonmel. Edmond Tobin was a blacksmith and almost all the records connected to him mention this. He had several children with his second wife Margaret Ussher in Clonmel between 1884 and 1891 and then one child in Tipperary in 1894. He died in Tipperary in 1895. But in 1892 a John Tobin was born in Tipperary to an Edmond Tobin blacksmith and Margaret Maher. I have the transcript of the birth registry and it's clearly Maher, but I can't find any marriage for an Edmond Tobin and Margaret Maher, nor any more children. I also have the transcript for the marriage of Edmond Tobin and Margaret Ussher and the Ussher does look like Maher when written so I wonder if it was a mistake or an illegitimate birth or what.

Could it be she isn't Ussher at all.

[GerryLS]

aghadowey - yes, I realise this, but I can really only work with what I got. And I have to assume that even if his parents died young, which is what I thought with the John Tobin of the Edmond Tobin blacksmith, he'd still know his birthdate, at least the day and the month if not the year.

myluck! - I thought that at first until I found out the birthdate info. But there's also the problem that I'm pretty sure the Maher is a transcription error for Usher. Margaret Usher had 6 other children with Edmond Tobin, on either side of the John born in 1892. I've not been able to find a marriage certificate for Maher/Tobin or any other children. So I'm pretty sure it was the same family.

I have a paper trail from Margaret Ussher/Usher's birth to her marriage to Edmond Tobin to her remarriage to the Corbett. I'm pretty sure she was an Usher not a Maher. The only thing might be that he was an illegitimate birth and Edmond Tobin had an affair with this Margaret Maher, but no one can find his baptism to prove this. And would she be brave enough to put his name on the birth certificate if it was an affair/illegitimate child?
The reason I need all this info to work out properly is that my British husband's job relies on being an EU citizen. If we can prove his grandfather was Irish he can apply to be registered as an Irish Foreign Birth and get Irish citizenship and keep his job if Brexit should come to pass. So I really need things to be pretty indisputable, even if I need a complicated paper trail to prove it. So I think a different birth date and mother's maiden name will not convince them.

Thanks for trying and keep throwing any ideas at me as I'm desperate. I'm still waiting on the priest from the parish he was married in to check the Chancery records to see if there was any note on his marriage papers about where he was born as he'd possibly have to prove he was baptised as a Catholic to be married. That would give us a place to look hopefully. There was nothing in the registry book so I'm thinking it's a long shot there will be anything else, but fingers crossed.

[aghadowey]

aghadowey - yes, I realise this, but I can really only work with what I got. And I have to assume that even if his parents died young, which is what I thought with the John Tobin of the Edmond Tobin blacksmith, he'd still know his birthdate, at least the day and the month if not the year.
My father-in-law, born early 1900s, could never remember his own birthdate as 'no one worried about that sort of thing' but would always say it was 'early in the year' so don't assume he knew the correct date.

Going back to the Edmond Tobin/Margaret Ussher couple- Margaret Usher had 6 other children with Edmond Tobin, on either side of the John born in 1892.
Does the 1892 birth fit in this chronologically? in other words, was there enough time before and after to fit in with the other births you found.
Have you checked with baptismal records for all the children to see if the priest recorded anything with the name Dwyer?

[GerryLS]

so don't assume he knew the correct date. - But I kind of have to. The Immigration Office or Passport Office won't accept me saying, well I know he said his birthdate was 15.5.1895 but I think he was wrong and it was 8.11.1892 because some things fit with the other family.

Yes they fit chronologically, the John Tobin was born in November 1892, 5 children were born before him in Clonmel up to March 1891, but one sister was born in Tipperary in Jul 1894 and then Edmond died in Tipperary in Apr 1895.

[GerryLS]

Have you checked with baptismal records for all the children to see if the priest recorded anything with the name Dwyer?

Yes, there's nothing that says Dwyer on any of the papers I've found for civil births, birth certificates, marriages or deaths. Not even the witnesses names. I thought I found a Margaret Tobin who married a Michael Dwyer in the area, but I'm pretty sure she's 10 years younger than the Margaret Usher Tobin I have. The family is in the 1901 and 1911 censuses with year of birth, but I've asked the Waterford genealogy office to check the records to see if they say widow or spinster, but I haven't heard anything back from them yet.

[familyroutes]

so don't assume he knew the correct date.  The Immigration Office or Passport Office won't accept me saying, well I know he said his birthdate was 15.5.1895

I can see your problem.My father-in-law,like aghadowey's, didn't know the date or the year of his birth and his family were all literate. He just knew which sibling he was older than! Likewise my friend's father didn't know his birthday. They were both from country towns in the 1910's and there didn't seem to be much notice paid to birthdays!

[GerryLS]

Well, he might have just made something up but he stuck to it. Even though the marriage certificates and death certificate only give ages, I figured out from the dates of the events and the age given that the 15.5.1895 would have been right.

The only age that doesn't match is his burial record which said he was 56 instead of 52, but someone else would have given that info, possibly his brother in law who was the witness on his death certificate. And if I use the 1892 date instead he would have been just 55, not 56.