Author Topic: Help translating this sentence from Welsh...  (Read 1758 times)

Offline jones9

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Help translating this sentence from Welsh...
« on: Saturday 20 August 16 00:59 BST (UK) »
Could anyone help me translate the below sentence please?

"Sian a briododd Moris ap Sion ap Rhydderch o Llandrillo yn y Dernion brawd hynaf i Moris Jones ac a fuont feirw heb blant."

Thank you in advance!!

Offline Kay99

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Re: Help translating this sentence from Welsh...
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 20 August 16 05:06 BST (UK) »
Sian married Moris son of Sion son of Rhydderch of Llandrillo in Dernion elder brother to Moris Jones who died childless??

Offline jones9

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Re: Help translating this sentence from Welsh...
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 20 August 16 09:29 BST (UK) »
Thank you that's a great help - grammatically would the 'who died childless' clause refer to Moris ap Sion or Moris Jones?

Also seems odd that two brothers would both be called 'Moris'!!!

Offline malijibic

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Re: Help translating this sentence from Welsh...
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 20 August 16 09:42 BST (UK) »
Is this the full sentence or just a phrase?
I read it that Sion ap Rhydderch was the brother of Morris Jones.
Fuont ferw heb blant  refers to Sian and Morris because it is in the prural.
my opinion!!
Mali, Welsh speaker but not a grammar expert


Offline EmyrBorth

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Re: Help translating this sentence from Welsh...
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 20 August 16 10:51 BST (UK) »
Hi
Mali is correct, 'fuont' is plural, so refers to the couple.
'Dernion' is short for 'Edernion' (various spellings). There are a number of places called 'Llandrillo'.
From Wikipedia:
 Llandrillo (or, in full, Llandrillo yn Edeirnion) is a small village and community in the Edeirnion area of Denbighshire in Wales, between Bala, and Corwen on the B4401 road. It was historically in the county of Merionethshire, and has a population of 580.[1]

It is named after Saint Trillo who came from Brittany with other missionaries and who founded Llandrillo church on a mound next to the Ceidiog stream close to its confluence with the River Dee.

Emyr

Offline jones9

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Re: Help translating this sentence from Welsh...
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 20 August 16 10:56 BST (UK) »
Thank you both for your replies....interesting thank you!

The extract comes from a welsh pedigree here: https://archive.org/stream/archaeologiacam41assogoog#page/n212/mode/2up (page 162)

Morris Jones was I think the first member of this family to change from the old patronymic system to 'Jones' as a heritable surname.

So I am quite sure Moris ap Sion (or John?) ap Rhydderch was the brother of Morris Jones....but does seem very odd to have had two sons by the same name? Perhaps if they were born 20 years apart, then Morris ap Sion died young and Sion ap Rhydderch had another son called Morris after him? - or would it be possible to have two sons called morris at the same time (I know this is not unheard of though extremely rare! - perhaps if by different wives?)