Advice Please re National Archives at Kew - Merchant Navy records

[seaweed]

HMac, is correct. The document you need is his form CRS10
It should be here.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10988554

If he had MN service after WW2 his service may be recorded here.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10990418

Together with  BT 391/18/88, pre order both documents to be on the safe side.  Give as much relevant info as you can. DOB, Discharge A number. Leave it until afternoon before you visit and with any luck TNA staff will have already copied the correct documents.
CRS 10's are stored alphabetically in blocks of 60 names there for you cannot access an individual seaman. CRS 10's contain sensitive personal information and I suspect, been used in the past to commit Identity Fraud. TNA take security to the higher limit when they receive requests for CRS10's. Your best bet is to visit Kew, trying to get the National Archives to search for you can be an expensive nightmare.
 The procedure is somewhat complicated but TNA staff are very helpful and you should not have any problem. After you have obtained his CRS10 you can then go on to view Crew Agreements and Logbooks it all depends how deep you wish to go with your research,


It should contain the following information
The front page of the service entries includes the following information:
•Name •Date and place of birth
•Discharge 'A' number
•Rank or rating, with relevant certificate details
•Details of any other qualifications
•Date CRS 10 first page was created
•British Seamen's Identity Card Notations. The entries refer to correspondence and issuing of cards, certificates, applications etc. The originals in general do not survive except where they have been filed in the seaman's pouch. See below.
•Merchant Navy Establishment [licenced] Agencies (MNEA) Contracts

•The continuation pages show: A list of ships and their official numbers with date and place of engagement,
•rank or rating,
•F or H (for Foreign or Home trade voyage),
•date and place of discharge from the ship
•character grade
•National Insurance contribution code
•Registry clerk's initials and date of the entry.
•When ashore the sheet may bear the entry MNRP (Merchant Navy Reserve Pool) with date and place.

[brynjon]

Thanks all - much appreciated.

HMac and Seaweed - last year I paid TNA for the records they held within that number, however, what came back appeared to be in the main (The documents are with my father presently so I recall what I remember from them) bouts of sickness including an entry which I was convinced was curly teeth, though I do think this is caried/s teeth.
The ships recorded on these documents are all dated in 1944 and beyond though I believe he served during the earlier part of the war.

There was another number on these documents
BT391/18/686799  another showing Rank as Fireman (I think he was a stoker) with a number 169583

I have asked my surviving aunt and uncle about James Herbert CLARK's service but they have no information other than my grandfather having a close connection to Norway after the war and his children receiving gifts and letters from the mayor of I think Bergen.

Ships I know of:-
Cyrus Sears -7/4/44 - 29/4/44 Ref 169583
there is also mention of a Cyrus Pool.
Ascanius - 5/6/44 to 9/8/44
Empire Dirk - 23/2/45 - 4/8/45 - then 5/8/45 - 2/1/46 (Heligoland) Ref 134331
William Cash 15/2/46 - 18/3/46 Ref 134331
Cowell 4/6/46 - 20/9/46 Ref 163632
Westcliffe Hall - 10/10/46 - 13/12/46 Ref 160408
Petworth - 21/12/46 - 5/1/47 Ref ON163572

Cheers - Bryn



My visit to TNA will have to be rearranged now to a date later in September/October however, I will indeed take a look around the other sights to be seen.

I had planned (badly as it seems now) a multi stop route back to the north east, Saturday night in Seasalter area, where part of paternal great grandparents worked as mariners and oyster dredgers. Mainly just to have a look around the old parts of town and take some notes/photos for the record. The idea was to stop over near Kew on Sunday and have the Monday there before heading up to Hanley (Stoke) to see if we can locate his grandfather's birth Thomas Emrys JONES.

[Retsina]

Thanks this is helpful 

[ScouseBoy]

Fireman was a merchant navy term. While in the R N the same job was Stoker

[HMac]

The records held in BT 382 - CRS 10s were written up ashore and do hold mistakes and omissions, I am afraid.
I have seen this before in a few of them with only mention from the later part of the war recorded. The only way to find out in the absence of his discharge books would be to use crew agreements starting from CYRUS SEARS in 1944. Crew agreements usually show the seaman's previous ship so you can use this method, with a bit of luck, to find his previous service. The problem may be that if any of his previous ships were sunk then that piece of information so crucial to your quest may not be there. However, that is the route you will need to go down.

Regards
Hugh

[seaweed]

His Form CRS10 should show any service he had before 1944 right back to early 1941. I can understand Hugh's comments but I think it is essential you do look for his form CRS10. If it is incomplete, like I said in my original post, we can then go down the Crew Agreement road.
I note that he did not apply for his Medal entitlement.
The numbers you refer to such as 169583 etc. are the official numbers of the vessels he served on.
Official numbers are a unique  to an individual British or Empire ship. They stay with that ship no matter how many name changes and owners she has as long as she remained on the British register. Even if a vessel was sold Foreign and returned to the British Register she would still retain her original O/N.

[brynjon]

Thanks again Hugh - with the anecdotal stories of him being sunk 3 times during his service during the war perhaps it is going to me more difficult, however, more of a challenge for me which is good. I think I need to find a means to learn a lot more on Merchant Navy history and digging through archives, though as has been suggested I will be unable just to go rooting.

Seaweed many thanks for that too. I did make enquiries relating to his medals with an office I think in Wales to be told he did not get any. That answer was in a way a kick in the teeth for me and someone else some time ago suggested his records may be misfiled. My enquiries with the medals had only the info in my initial post - name dob and R number. Should I enquire with some other information? Your comment suggested there is a way of discovering whether someone should have received but not yet claimed?

I assume unlike the COMNO pouch (as I have learned) I would need to visit personally for the CRS 10? If that is the case I will have another journey south (It is a good excuse for travel) once I take my father to Stoke and back home.

[HMac]

It was my understanding that you had recieved his CRS 10 and that it was incomplete.

Please check that the document you have is from BT 382 and not BT 391. Just to be clear if you do not have his CRS 10 then follow seaweed's advice first as crew agreements will always be your last resort.

Regarding his medals, he does not appear to have a medal file. This means he or his next of kin never claimed them or they may have but the paper work has not survived. He definitely was entitled to medals but there is a process you need to go through first.

Seaweed and I can certainly help you with that process - been down these roads many times now.

Regards
Hugh

[seaweed]

Hugh's the man to talk to concerning MN medals. What you have stated already concerning the vessel he served on from April 1944. To my mind he would be entitled.