Author Topic: Gold Hallmark Anomaly  (Read 4783 times)

Offline PEM07

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Gold Hallmark Anomaly
« on: Thursday 08 September 16 06:35 BST (UK) »
Hello
I am the 2xgreat grandson of William Bent Watchmaker 1823-1917.
I have spent many years collecting photos and compiling details of any William Bent watches which still exist across the World today. (See my blog William Bent Watchmaker)
Most recently, William Bent serial number #15063 thanks to Douglas in San Francisco.
A beautiful full-hunter, 18ct solid gold, keyless, sweep centre seconds chronograph.
Discovered after spending the last 70 years in a drawer.
However, this watch hides a mystery that I hope you will be able to help me with to solve this enigma.
According to my records, all William Bent watches were hallmarked in London.
Serial number 15063 (which appears on both case and movement) lies between #13506 (hallmarked with date letter for 1874) and #16581 (hallmarked with date letter for 1879). Therefore it is not surprising to see the capital "A" date letter (for 1876). Except, The capital "A" on this watch is the wrong font. It is not a font used by London, but in fact the Chester Assay Office???
The city hallmark on this watch is for the Chester Assay Office. (never before seen on a William Bent watch).
If you refer to the Chester hallmark chart, this particular font does not represent 1876. So now I am really confused.
The second photo shows the hallmarks that were expected.
The last photo shows the hallmarks on this watch???
Any light you can throw on this puzzle would be greatly appreciated.
Philip

Bkm: BIRCH
Ess: DAWKINS, SKINGLEY
Ham: MARSTON, SHUTE
Hrt: WORRAL
Hun: BROWNING, DAY
Lan: CHEW
Lnd: BLAKESLEY
Mdx: BENT, DODD, MARSTON, WHITLOCK
Sry: OAKMAN
Sts: ELLIS, KIDWELL, REDFERN, SHERWIN

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Gold Hallmark Anomaly
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 08 September 16 07:25 BST (UK) »
The date letter was used for 1901, Chester Assay Office.

http://www.925-1000.com/dlChester.html
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline josey

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Re: Gold Hallmark Anomaly
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 08 September 16 08:56 BST (UK) »
Could there have been a repair made in Chester in 1901?
Seeking: RC baptism Philip Murray Feb ish 1814 ? nr Chatham Kent.
IRE: Kik DRAY[EA], PURCELL, WHITE: Mea LYNCH: Tip MURRAY, SHEEDY: Wem ALLEN, ENGLISHBY; Dub PENROSE: Lim DUNN[E], FRAWLEY, WILLIAMS.
87th Regiment RIF: MURRAY
ENG; Marylebone HAYTER, TROU[W]SDALE, WILLIAMS,DUNEVAN Con HAMPTON, TREMELLING Wry CLEGG, HOLLAND, HORSEFIELD Coventry McGINTY
CAN; Halifax & Pictou: HOLLAND, WHITE, WILLIAMSON

Offline PEM07

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Re: Gold Hallmark Anomaly
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 11 September 16 02:31 BST (UK) »
Thank you KGarrad for your prompt response.

The date letter was used for 1901, Chester Assay Office.

http://www.925-1000.com/dlChester.html

You are absolutely correct that the "A" on this watch is from the Chester Assay Office.
Thank you for the information.
Philip
Bkm: BIRCH
Ess: DAWKINS, SKINGLEY
Ham: MARSTON, SHUTE
Hrt: WORRAL
Hun: BROWNING, DAY
Lan: CHEW
Lnd: BLAKESLEY
Mdx: BENT, DODD, MARSTON, WHITLOCK
Sry: OAKMAN
Sts: ELLIS, KIDWELL, REDFERN, SHERWIN


Offline PEM07

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Re: Gold Hallmark Anomaly
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 11 September 16 02:38 BST (UK) »
Thank you Josey for your interesting suggestion.

Could there have been a repair made in Chester in 1901?

The hallmarks are stamped in to a gold item by the Assay Office just after its manufacture as proof of its purity and origin. In this case, 18ct gold British made.

I appreciate your input
Philip
Bkm: BIRCH
Ess: DAWKINS, SKINGLEY
Ham: MARSTON, SHUTE
Hrt: WORRAL
Hun: BROWNING, DAY
Lan: CHEW
Lnd: BLAKESLEY
Mdx: BENT, DODD, MARSTON, WHITLOCK
Sry: OAKMAN
Sts: ELLIS, KIDWELL, REDFERN, SHERWIN

Offline youngtug

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Re: Gold Hallmark Anomaly
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 11 September 16 06:09 BST (UK) »
Maybe someone had a new case made, reason unknown, and the serial number of the watch was added to the new case. Probably not a case of being deliberately misleading but just match up the old & new.
.http://www.rootschat.com/links/05q2/   
  WILSON;-Wiltshire.
 SOUL;-Gloucestershire.
 SANSUM;-Berkshire-Wiltshire
 BASSON-BASTON;- Berkshire,- Oxfordshire.
 BRIDGES;- Wiltshire.
 DOWDESWELL;-Wiltshire,Gloucestershire
 JORDAN;- Berkshire.
 COX;- Berkshire.
 GOUDY;- Suffolk.
 CHATFIELD;-Sussex-- London
 MORGAN;-Blaenavon-Abersychan
 FISHER;- Berkshire.
 BLOMFIELD-BLOOMFIELD-BLUMFIELD;-Suffolk.
DOVE. Essex-London
YOUNG-Berkshire
ARDEN.
PINEGAR-COLLIER-HUGHES-JEFFERIES-HUNT-MOSS-FRY

Offline PEM07

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Re: Gold Hallmark Anomaly
« Reply #6 on: Monday 12 September 16 04:52 BST (UK) »
Youngtug I think you may have something here!

Maybe someone had a new case made, reason unknown, and the serial number of the watch was added to the new case. Probably not a case of being deliberately misleading but just match up the old & new.

The watch movement certainly could have had a new gold case made for it in Chester as you suggest. And the case maker would then stamp the case with he movement serial number and then have the case assayed in Chester. I think you have the answer. Well done youngtug! Mystery solved!
Thanks for your help.
Philip
Bkm: BIRCH
Ess: DAWKINS, SKINGLEY
Ham: MARSTON, SHUTE
Hrt: WORRAL
Hun: BROWNING, DAY
Lan: CHEW
Lnd: BLAKESLEY
Mdx: BENT, DODD, MARSTON, WHITLOCK
Sry: OAKMAN
Sts: ELLIS, KIDWELL, REDFERN, SHERWIN

Offline PEM07

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Re: Gold Hallmark Anomaly
« Reply #7 on: Monday 12 September 16 05:26 BST (UK) »
The following seems to be a likely explanation...

The watch movement (by its serial number) was made in 1876.
It may, or may not, have originally been housed in a gold case.
Perhaps the original case became damaged?
In 1901 a new gold case was made for this movement in Chester.
The Chester case maker, stamped the case with the same serial number as the movement. (Because it was made for that movement).
The finished case was then assayed in Chester.

This would explain the Chester hallmarks for 1901.

Thank you all so much for your help. Well done team!
Regards
Philip
Bkm: BIRCH
Ess: DAWKINS, SKINGLEY
Ham: MARSTON, SHUTE
Hrt: WORRAL
Hun: BROWNING, DAY
Lan: CHEW
Lnd: BLAKESLEY
Mdx: BENT, DODD, MARSTON, WHITLOCK
Sry: OAKMAN
Sts: ELLIS, KIDWELL, REDFERN, SHERWIN

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Gold Hallmark Anomaly
« Reply #8 on: Monday 12 September 16 11:23 BST (UK) »
Retailers also were guilty of putting their own marks on stuff?

Skoosh.