Author Topic: Arms of Thomas Broadley, Dover, Kent  (Read 882 times)

Offline clayton bradley

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Arms of Thomas Broadley, Dover, Kent
« on: Tuesday 20 September 16 13:57 BST (UK) »
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/MIs/MIsDoverStMarys/01.htm
Please would someone who knows about heraldry have a look at the above site? For Thomas Broadley the arms say Ar, a chevron, Sab. impaling, ROUSE, Crest: a Pelican (which doesn't look right at all) and for  Henry Broadley Or, a Chev. Az. impaling, Az. 9 mullets, 3,3,2 & 1, Or, Crest: a Pelican.
Shouldn't the arms agree? These people are father and son, I believe. None of my Lancashire Broadleys has a coat of arms. I know they came originally from Yorkshire before 1654 and it's possible one of the Yorkshire families has a coat of arms. I have traced this Kentish family back to Henry Bradley/Broadley who married in Kent about 1670 and it may be that he came from Yorkshire or just that his name ended up spelled Broadley by mistake. I'd be grateful for any information which would help me to decide. claytonbradley
Broadley (Lancs all dates and Halifax bef 1654)

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Offline MaecW

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Re: Arms of Thomas Broadley, Dover, Kent
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 21 September 16 13:03 BST (UK) »
The impaled arms often indicate the arms of the wife of the couple. This is the case with Capt. Henry (d 1791) where the "Az. 9 mullets 3,3,2 & 1 Or" are the arms of Baillie of Lamington, his wife Philadelphia's family.
I'm not so sure about Thomas jnrs' arms impaling ROUSE as his will indicates that his wife is Mary who, if I read the record correctly, was a Perkins. However I only had a desultory search and you may be able to find the connection yourself.
I question whether the Henry and Thomas you are asking after are in fact father and son as there are only 14 years between their birth dates. Could they both be sons of Thomas snr. ?

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

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Offline clayton bradley

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Re: Arms of Thomas Broadley, Dover, Kent
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 21 September 16 20:07 BST (UK) »
Thank you for your reply. You are quite right. I was mixing up my Henrys and Thomases. Henry who died in 1791 was born in 1716 son of Thomas and Susanna Broadley. The Thomas who died in 1777 was born in 1731 son of John and Ann Broadley. John was born in 1706 and was the older brother of Henry so Thomas 1731 was the nephew of Henry 1716.
I don't understand about the arms. Do you mean the Broadleys didn't have arms themselves, or if they did, what were their arms? Is there a list somewhere which will tell me more about their arms and when they acquired them?
If you take out the impaling, one seems to have Or, a Chev. Az. Crest a Pelican and the other Ar, a Chev, Sab. Crest a Pelican. I don't understand why they have different arms if they are the same family.
Broadley (Lancs all dates and Halifax bef 1654)

Offline MaecW

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Re: Arms of Thomas Broadley, Dover, Kent
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 22 September 16 01:59 BST (UK) »
In English heraldry there is no such thing as a family coat-of-arms. The original arms belong to the senior male branch and junior branches must add or change something to indicate the difference.
I think this is what happened here, ignoring the impaling : Thomas, the Deputy Governor, has, or is granted, a Coat of Arms "Ar, a chevron, Sab". John, as eldest son, inherited his father's arms and, in turn, these were passed on to his eldest son Thomas jnr.
John's younger brother adopts his father's arms but differences them by changing the colours from Argent to Or and from Sable to Azure.
Both use the Pelican crest.

There is no readily available record of Grants of Arms, although the College of Arms may be able to confirm a Grant but I understand their search fees are substantial ( ;D ).

I'll dig around a little further and see if I can find more information.

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)

Offline clayton bradley

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Re: Arms of Thomas Broadley, Dover, Kent
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 22 September 16 20:06 BST (UK) »
Thank you very much for explaining that. It sounds quite a simple coat of arms and the very little I know about heraldry includes the fact(?) that simple coats of arms are earlier than complex ones, so I am still wondering if it went back further than Thomas, who appears to have been the son of Henry and Elizabeth Bradley, about whom I know nothing. It's very kind of you to help me and any more information will be gratefully received, claytonbradley
Broadley (Lancs all dates and Halifax bef 1654)

Offline clayton bradley

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Re: Arms of Thomas Broadley, Dover, Kent
« Reply #5 on: Monday 10 October 16 13:32 BST (UK) »
Ancestry had a free weekend and I found a will for a Henry Broadley of Dover, Kent whom I had already established belonged to the family with the arms. He lived 1674-1737 and his will leaves property in Barrow in Lincoln. Barrow is just over the river from Hull. This seems to be proof that the Kentish Broadleys are indeed an offshoot of the Yorkshire Broadleys.
I have found a description of the arms for the Kirk Ella Broadleys and it begins "a gold shield with a chevron" (chequy ermine and red between three crosses patee fitchee at the front sable. A cross pattee fitchee within a chaplet of roses proper forms the crest and the motto is Honor post funera vixit.) I have no idea what date this is but there is a similarity between the gold shield with a chevron of Kirk Ella and the gold shield with a chevron (different colours, I know) of Dover. Is this an accidental similarity? Are there thousands of gold shields with chevrons? claytonbradley
Broadley (Lancs all dates and Halifax bef 1654)

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Arms of Thomas Broadley, Dover, Kent
« Reply #6 on: Monday 10 October 16 13:55 BST (UK) »
A chevron is one of the "Ordinaries" and is one of the most frequently used.
Nothing can be inferred as to the fact of a gold shield with a chevron.

Arms using this device on a gold shield include:
Surridge.
Salt.
Chepmerden.
Cleaver.
Glenham.
Folbourne.
Cartheu.
Stafford, Duke of Buckingham.
Landon.
etc., etc.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline clayton bradley

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Re: Arms of Thomas Broadley, Dover, Kent
« Reply #7 on: Monday 10 October 16 14:19 BST (UK) »
Thank you for your reply KGarrad. At least I have the proof of the property to fall back on. If anyone does know the date of the Kirk Ella arms I would be glad to know that. claytonbradley
Broadley (Lancs all dates and Halifax bef 1654)

Offline MaecW

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Re: Arms of Thomas Broadley, Dover, Kent
« Reply #8 on: Monday 17 October 16 12:25 BST (UK) »
I agree with KGarrad that a chevron on a gold shield on its own could not be taken as a sign of connectivity, but I would not dismiss your theory quite so readily. You have two other pieces of supporting evidence : the name Broadley and the land in Lincolnshire.
The different spelling of the surname may not be significant as few spellings were fixed at that time and Bradley and Broadley have the same meaning. The Lincolnshire land also lends itself to the conclusion you have drawn.
So, other than pure coincidence as KGarrad suggests, you are left with two other possibilities :
That Henry Broadley of Dover is actually related to the Bradleys of Yorkshire and was granted (or adopted) arms that reflect that  OR  that he was not related but was granted (or adopted) arms that implied that he was ! Given the rather loose application of heraldry at the time the latter is not impossible !
The only way to solve this is either to trace Henry's ancestors to a point where it becomes clear whether he is related to the Yorkshire family or not, or to obtain the original grant of Arms (if there is one !)

Maec
Baron (of Blackburn), Chadwick (Oswaldtwistle), Watkins (Swansea), Jones (x3 Swansea), Colton (Shropshire), Knight (Shropshire/Montgomery) , Bullen (Norfolk), White (Dorset)