Author Topic: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left  (Read 8513 times)

Offline Ladyhawk

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,424
    • View Profile
Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« Reply #18 on: Saturday 15 April 17 10:19 BST (UK) »
Hello Mark
Thankyou for this information, but some parts have me stumped.

This Otto Simon Henry Harcourt is I believe the eldest son of George Harcourt's second marriage to a Gertrude Charlotte Lucas married abt 1846.

From what I have been told is that
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft abt 1892
and they had a son named
Charles Walmer Harcourt b abt 1895.
This son later used his mothers name Ascroft to enable him to inherit a gold mine in Magliesburg, Africa.

I also am led to believe
Charles Walmer Harcourt (Ascroft) married in 1912 a Cecil Violet Enid Greville at Pietermaritzburg, Natal, Africa.

Is there any confirmation as to this person Charles and did he have siblings.



No father's named bride age 18 (consent by mother)
1912 marriage  Charles Walmer ASCROFT age 25 (born c 1887)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6DMS-GZ2?mode=g&i=645&cc=2063749

Charles Walmer Ascroft
Regiment or Corps:   R Army Service Corps
Regimental Number:   T4/253152

Charles Walmer Ascroft
Military Year:   1914-1920
Rank:   Sergeant
Medal Awarded:   British War Medal and Victory Medal
Regiment or Corps:   Army Service Corps
Regimental Number:   T4/253152
Previous Units:   R.A.S.C. T4/253152. Sergeant.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/144665-missing-soldier-charles-walmer-ascroft/

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Ladyhawk

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,424
    • View Profile
Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 15 April 17 18:33 BST (UK) »

From what I have been told is that Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft abt 1892


Where did Otto marry Muriel? -

Edit - I can now see you answered that on post reply 4

Quote
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft circa 1892 in Cape Colony, Africa, who was their son.


Looks as if he married for a third time

Sep 1910 Westminster
Otto Simon H Harcourt
Female name on same page
Hannah Russell

1901 census https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9TK-1ZQ
Otto S H Harcourt age 52 Mechanical Engineer born Wraysbury Buckinghamshire
Visiting him is 
Hannah Russell age 36 Bradford Yorkshire Housekeeper (Domestic)

Otto Simon Henry Harcourt engineer
Hannah Harcourt photo artist
1914 address 91 Collins Street Melbourne

Mr & Mrs Harcourt aged 60 & 51
Port of Departure:   Brisbane, Australia
Arrival Date:   17 Jul 1915
Port of Arrival:   London, England
Ports of Voyage:   Plymouth
Ship Name:   Osterley

Otto Simon Henry Harcourt of 1b Grove End House St. John’s Wood
Died 5 Nov 1915 Probate 16 Nov 1915 to widow Hannah Harcourt

Hannah Harcourt widow of Coombe Wood House Surrey
Died 8 Mar 1942 Probate 7 May 1942 Midland Bank Executor & Trustee Company Ltd.
Llandudno





Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Brooke Greville

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 15
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 15 April 17 19:07 BST (UK) »
I must thank you for your hard work in answering some questions, but there is a concern here that I cant understand.

This Charles Walmer (Harcourt) Ascroft is not showing in your content as a child for Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, I hope we have the same Otto of the Ankerwycke Harcourts.
We know Charles Walmer Ascroft exists but I have a document that indicates Charles Walmer Ascroft is in actual fact an elder Harcourt son and assumed the name Ascroft to inherit shares in the Gold Mines at Blaaubank, Magliesburg around the 1912 period.
The name Ascroft I think comes from his relative James Ascroft b abt 1834 Philadelphia and this family is closely linked to a James Jennings the magliesburg gold miner in Africa and Australia.

There must be a simple explanation or a mysterious case, because in this document I have, it indicates the father of Miss Cecil Violet Enid Greville was against her marrying a commoner until the mother of Charles Walmer explained he was of the Harcourt family and was due to inherit the gold mines, so the father Maj Brooke Southwell Greville relented. I also believe that Cecil Violet Enid Greville was born in 1896 making her just 16 when she married in 1912.

It is understood this gold mine was swindled away from Charles Walmer Ascroft in 1913 by his Father-in-Law Maj Greville with the help of the family solicitor a Mr Gordon Symonds/Simmonds of Johanesbourg. By coincidence Maj Greville and his daughter returned back to England in 1913/14 by ship from Durban on their own, the proud owners of a gold mine.

There was talk that one or two Harcourt sons went missing whilst prospecting for gold, I often wondered if Charles was one of them.

If this Charles Walmer Ascroft (Harcourt?) was the eldest son of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt it should be documented and would add a strong family branch to the Harcourt family. He existed, so his life should be on record somewhere. A lot of family and geographic facts tie up with what's being recognised now.

HELP.


Offline Ladyhawk

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,424
    • View Profile
Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 15 April 17 19:28 BST (UK) »
I haven't found anything else for a Charles Walmer Ascroft/Harcourt other than what's posted so far
his marriage 1912 which give his age 25 born c 1887

GRO indexes have these birth entries that give mmn LUCAS

Cyril Baldwin HARCOURT mmn   LUCAS     
1851  M Quarter in ISLE OF WIGHT  Volume 08  Page 271

Otto Simon Henry HARCOURT mmn    LUCAS 
1849  M Quarter in ETON BUCKS  Volume 06  Page 415

1851c https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGBM-28G
Gertrude Charlotte Harcourt (nee LUCAS) with son Simon age 9, plus 3 dau's and a son
(not named) age 0 not yet baptized

You may already have this info. on Cyril but will post anyway

Cyril Baldwin Harcourt
Residence :   Saint Peter, Pimlico, Middlesex
Spouse's Name:   Mary Louisa Ottley
Spouse's Residence:   Holy Trinity, Upper Chelsea, Middlesex
Licence Date:   27 Nov 1876
from London, England, Crisp's Marriage Licence Index, 1713-1892

Marriage  14 Dec 1876 St Peter's Church Square London
Cyril Baldwin Harcourt son of Late George Simon Harcourt Esq. Ankerwycke formerly MP for Bucks
Mary Louisa Ottley dau of late Herbert Taylor Ottley Esq., Moyola Lodge Co Londonderry
and 28 York Terrace Regent’s Park London
source Belfast, Northern Ireland, The Belfast Newsletter (Birth, Marriage and Death Notices), 1738-1925

ADDED on 1881c
Cyril B Harcourt
is Private Secretary To Archbishop Of Canterbury

Transcript only
Cyril Baldwin Harcourt
Baptism    11 May 1851   Holy Trinity, Ryde, Hampshire, England
Father:   George Simon Harcourt Mother:   Gertrude Charlotte










Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline Ladyhawk

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,424
    • View Profile
Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« Reply #22 on: Saturday 15 April 17 19:49 BST (UK) »
Quote
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt married a Muriel Ascroft circa 1892 in Cape Colony, Africa, who was their son.

Do you know when he travelled to Cape Colony?

It must have been after 1891 and before 1901 as Otto is on 1901 UK census occ Mechanical engineer and his wife to be Hannah Russell is a visitor and 1891 UK census
with wife Isabella L (nee De Lisle) and children Beatrice 18, Gerald St J 9 & Ivor J 6

Beatrice Maude Harcourt bp 1873
Wilfred Otto Harcourt bp 1875
Norman De Lisle Harcourt bp 1878
Florence Helena Harcourt bp 1880 d1880
Gerald Harcourt bp 1882
Ivor James Harcourt Bp 1885 born 1884

Otto Simon Henry Harcourt Age:   42 (1849)
Event Date:   15 Jun 1891
Institute:   Mechanical
Country/Region:   United Kingdom
source UK, Mechanical Engineer Records, 1847-1930

He married Hannah Russell Sep 1910 it looks as if they might have traveled to Australia soon after their marriage - unless there is another Otto Harcourt  ???

Mr O & Mrs Harcourt
Departure 15 9 1910
Departure port   London
Destination port   Melbourne
Destination   MELBOURNE
Ship name   Orsova

Otto Harcourt age 61 occ engineer
T??? Harcourt age 46
Arrival Date:   24 Oct 1910
Arrival Port:   Brisbane, Australia
Departure Port:   London
Ship:   Orsova
Nationality:   English

When did Muriel Ascroft/Harcourt die?

This is interesting looks to be the death of Otto's wife Isabella but he's noted as Widowed on
1901 census  ???

Isabella Leonora Harcourt died age 56 Jun 1910 Apr-May-Jun

 RG13; Piece: 4436; Folio: 132; Page: 5

You need to look at 1901 census
Written in last column
? has come ? knowledge that the 4 members of this family do not sleep here on the census night ? ? schedule by Mr Harcourt under a mis apprehension
Crossed out
Otto Harcourt 46 engineer
Mrs I Harcourt wife
Gerald 19 son
Names crossed out
Ivor son
Wilfred son
Norman son
Beatrice Asterbury
dau M

Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline jennifer c

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,759
  • Latest bud on my family tree
    • View Profile
Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 15 April 17 21:50 BST (UK) »
Cecil V E Ascroft remarried in London in 1927 to Edward Irvine Bussell.

Jennifer
Stevens /Godfrey /Rudgley /Claridge/ Gipson /George /Bliss
Census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline BushInn1746

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,109
  • My Family's Links 19th Cent
    • View Profile
Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« Reply #24 on: Sunday 16 April 17 12:53 BST (UK) »
Hello Brooke

Just to confirm the 1910 Marriage of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt to Hannah Russell (already mentioned above).

I cannot find them in the UK 1911 Census.

The 1915 Probate Register also states his widow was Hannah Harcourt.

https://probatesearch.service.gov.uk/Calendar?surname=Harcourt&yearOfDeath=1915&page=2#calendar

I have also checked the other 1910 Marriage on the same page of the Index and by eliminating that marriage, Otto has married Hannah Russell.

Regards Mark

Offline Ladyhawk

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,424
    • View Profile
Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« Reply #25 on: Sunday 16 April 17 15:10 BST (UK) »
Cecil V E Ascroft remarried in London in 1927 to Edward Irvine Bussell.


Would there be any mention of Cecil's husband Charles' whereabouts in their 1927 Divorce record

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8047726


Just to confirm the 1910 Marriage of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt to Hannah Russell (already mentioned above).

I cannot find them in the UK 1911 Census.


It may because Otto & Hannah traveled to Australia soon after their marriage in 1910 - see reply 22

Marriage 11th July 1910 St James, Piccadilly
married by Licence
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt f/a widower, occ engineer Jules Hotel Jermyn Street SW
father George Simon Harcourt Gentleman (dec'd)
Hannah Russell f/a spinster 29 Brunswick Street Chorlton Medlock Manchester
father Edward George Russell Gentleman (dec'd)
Witnesses Cyril B Harcourt & William Toz??
source Archive   City of Westminster Archives Centre

As previously posted Otto & Isabella married 1872 - here's the details

Marriage 13 Mar 1872 St James Swansea
married by Licence
Otto Simon Henry Harcourt f/a occ Engineer, Mansel Terrace
father George Simon Harcourt Gentleman
Isabella Leonora De Lisle minor Marylebone
father Ferdinand Edward De Lisle merchant
Witnesses Joshua B & Edward John Excell
(they are brothers living in Swansea in 1861 with siblings & parents John & Elizabeth
1861c RG9; Piece: 4102; Folio: 104; Page: 14

Otto & Isabella's (nee De lisle) last child born appears to be Ivor James Harcourt b1884 and the family are together on 1891 census  RG12; Piece: 3703; Folio: 53; Page: 17

Constituency in full: Parliamentary Borough of Leeds, North Division
Constituency: P B of Leeds, North Division
Year: 1896/1899/1900
Register type: Parliamentary Borough
Polling district or place: Leeds North Yorkshire
Archive: The British Library
Archive reference:SPR.Mic.P.365/BL.L.9
Image numbers: 203/403/415
Record set: England & Wales, Electoral Registers 1832-1932

1896 Otto Simon Henry Harcourt address 8 De Grey Road (living there 1891c with wife Isabella)
1899/1900 Otto Harcourt address 2  Francis Street

1901c Otto S H Harcourt & Hannah Russell
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9TK-1ZQ

On his 1912 marriage entry Charles Walmer Ascroft's age given 25 so born c 1887 -
if Charles Walmer Ascroft who married Cecil is the son of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt

What information do you have for Muriel Ascroft
ie parents names, year & place of birth, possible marriage to Otto etc....

Do you have Muriel on any UK censuses?

As mentioned it appears as if Otto's wife Isabella Leonora Harcourt died in Jun qtr. 1910 aged 56

There are these entries but there are no further details ie age, occupation, address and no middle names for Otto to confirm if its OSHH born c1846

Otto Harcourt
Port of Departure:   London
Port of Arrival:   Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date:   27 Apr 1911
Vessel Name:   Osterley
New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922

Mr Otto & Mrs Harcourt
Port of Departure:   Brisbane, Australia
Arrival Date:   25 Jun 1910
Port of Arrival:   London, England
Ship Name:   Orvieto
UK, Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960




Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Ladyhawk

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,424
    • View Profile
Re: Harcourt family of Ankerwycke, history and any relatives left
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 16 April 17 16:17 BST (UK) »
Mmn for Norman born 1877 -  DeLisle
Added also same for Florence.


Norman Di Lisle Harcourt
Baptism 30 Jan 1878 St Saviour Paddington
parents Otto Simon Henry Harcourt occ Engineer & Isabella Leonora
18 Randolph Road
Register Type:   Parish Registers

Perhaps someone has access for further details on following from Anc*y

Transvaal Province, South Africa, Estates Death Notice Index, 1855-1976
Norman DE Lisle Harcourt

baptism of Norman & Helena Dora Harcourt’s son Otto & dau Beatrice
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KYJ3-M9P
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVSH-FKG3


for info.

There's this 1926 marriage in Johannesburg for a Norman De Lisle Harcourt
says he's a bachelor age 48 (1878) born England occ fireman
http://www.rootschat.com/links/index.php

https://www.geni.com/people/Norman-Harcourt/6000000000361860880


This Charles Walmer (Harcourt) Ascroft is not showing in your content as a child for Otto Simon Henry Harcourt, I hope we have the same Otto of the Ankerwycke Harcourts.

We know Charles Walmer Ascroft exists but I have a document that indicates Charles Walmer Ascroft is in actual fact an elder Harcourt son and assumed the name Ascroft to inherit shares in the Gold Mines at Blaaubank, Magliesburg around the 1912 period.

If this Charles Walmer Ascroft (Harcourt?) was the eldest son of Otto Simon Henry Harcourt it should be documented and would add a strong family branch to the Harcourt family.
He existed, so his life should be on record somewhere.


I'm sorry but I haven't found anything to indicate Charles Walmer Ascroft is the son of OSHH  ???
Perhaps there is another Otto Harcourt  ???

Can you share the document you have here regarding Charles Walmer Ascroft as the elder Harcourt son it might aid people searching
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk