Author Topic: Where did grandfather Dugal McGregor alias Grame live in 1712?  (Read 2159 times)

Offline McGroger

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Where did grandfather Dugal McGregor alias Grame live in 1712?
« on: Thursday 06 October 16 04:48 BST (UK) »
I’m calling on people who’ve looked at a lot of 18th century baptism images.

Here are two baptisms for my ancestors’ family:

‘Octobr 11. 1708
‘John Grame alias McGregor in Ruskanach and Janet Mcf
-arlan spouse had a lawful son baptized called Dugald wit
-nesses Malcom Graham alias Mcgregor in Ruskanach and John Mcfarlan Kirk officer’

‘March. 7. 1712
‘Gregor Mcgregor alias  Jo: [John] Grame in Ruskanach & Janet McFarl
 -an spouse had a lawful son baptised called John  Witnesses
Dugal Grame and John Mcfarlan in Corgrinan’

Taking the second one first and relying on the naming pattern, I’m assuming the two witnesses in 1712 are the two grandfathers. Corgrinan, home of the maternal grandfather, is modern day Corriegrennan, a mile or so south-west of Loch Ard. The name Ruskanach morphed into Rowchnoc, which is part of modern day Ardess, just above Rowardennan on the shore of Loch Lomond at the foot of Ben Lomond.

In the first baptism (1708) the witnesses are different. I’m thinking that this may have been at the start of winter snowfalls and the grandparents - living some distance away - were unable to get there, so a close friend or relative who lived on the same Ruskanach farm (Malcom) and a church cleric were the witnesses (I think his having the same name as the Corriegrennan John McFarlan is just a coincidence).

My question is: does the wording imply that both Dugal Grame and John Mcfarlan were from Corriegrennan? Or could he have been from Ruskenach? (But in the 1708 baptism Malcom’s domicile was recorded - not assumed - and if Dugal lived with Gregor at Ruskenach why did he not witness the baptism of his first grandson?) Or could it be that Dugal Grame was a prominent parishioner whose home didn’t need recording? Or might there simply be no significance in the omission?

Any thoughts on this most appreciated. Thanks.

Cheers, Peter
Convicts: COSIER (1791); LEADBEATER (1791); SINGLETON (& PARKINSON) (1792); STROUD (1793); BARNES (aka SYDNEY) (1800); DAVIS (1804); CLARK (1806); TYLER (1810); COWEN (1818); ADAMS[ON] (1821); SMITH (1827); WHYBURN (1827); HARBORNE (1828).
Commoners: DOUGAN (1844); FORD (1849); JOHNSTON (1850); BEATTIE (& LONG) (1856); BRICKLEY (1883).
Outlaws: MCGREGOR (1883) & ass. clans, Glasgow, Glenquaich, Glenalmond and Glengyle.

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Where did grandfather Dugal McGregor alias Grame live in 1712?
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 06 October 16 12:07 BST (UK) »
They're described as "in" so are tenants, probably of the Duke of Montrose hence the use of Graham (Grame). The MacGregor name was proscribed & couldn't be used on a legal document. Rob Roy described himself as Campbell as the Duke of Argyll was his landlord.

Skoosh.

Offline McGroger

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Re: Where did grandfather Dugal McGregor alias Grame live in 1712?
« Reply #2 on: Friday 07 October 16 04:51 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Skoosh.

What I’m really trying to do is to get right down into the subtleties of the wording of the baptism entries to make a best guess as to Dugal’s domicile. Ruskanach or Corriegrennan or somewhere else?  (Because no farm was noted directly after his name.) Perhaps it’s impossible to say. I’ve seen a few baptism images, each page providing half a dozen or more entries. In baptisms of that time most I’ve seen give the home of all people mentioned. I’ve seen a few where the domicile of (rarely more than) one person is omitted. But I haven’t seen enough to determine whether there is some sort of pattern or whether sometimes someone’s home is just left off.

To give some background (as briefly as possible): My family has a tradition of descent from Rob Roy’s family. I’m mindful of the possibility that Dugal of the baptism could be Rob’s brother-in-law, who originally came from Comer at the opposite end of Glen Dubh to Corriegrennan. Dugal paid out a debt Rob owed to Archibald McGregor (the clan chief) and took over the vendor mortgage Archibald had had on Inversnaid when he first sold its lease to Rob.

By the time of the baptisms in 1708 and 1712 Rob also owned or controlled the better part of Craigrostan of which Ruskanach/Ardess was a part.

Pure speculation, but Gregor could have met Janet McFarlan at Ballimore township, halfway between the two farms and been found a position at Ruskanach through the family connection when marriage was on the cards.

There is also a record of a monument to Gregor McGregor and Janet McFarlan in the burying ground on Inchcailloch island in Loch Lomond:

“Gregor McGREGOR farmer d. 11.7.1722, w Janet McFARLAND & his successors, 1722’”.

While the church on the island had been long abandoned, the burial ground was still used by the more prominent McGregor and McFarlan families. So if the parents in the baptisms were from leading families, the grandfather Dugal - about the right age, with the same alias and living in the same part of the parish - would have a big chance of being Rob Roy’s brother-in-law. (I’ve made exhaustive searches to find other possibilities for the Gregor and Janet of the Inchcailloch monument and found no better possibilities in Stirlingshire or Perthshire than the pair in the baptisms. Of course nothing is certain when dealing with incomplete records.)

 Hmmm. not very brief but I’ve tried to condense it from thousands of words. Hope it makes sense.

So, I’m just looking for opinions as to whether the wording in the baptisms could indicate anything regarding where Dugal might have lived - one of the places mentioned, or somewhere else which may have been obvious to parishioners at the time and didn’t need recording. Or perhaps nothing at all should be deduced from it.

Cheers, Peter
Convicts: COSIER (1791); LEADBEATER (1791); SINGLETON (& PARKINSON) (1792); STROUD (1793); BARNES (aka SYDNEY) (1800); DAVIS (1804); CLARK (1806); TYLER (1810); COWEN (1818); ADAMS[ON] (1821); SMITH (1827); WHYBURN (1827); HARBORNE (1828).
Commoners: DOUGAN (1844); FORD (1849); JOHNSTON (1850); BEATTIE (& LONG) (1856); BRICKLEY (1883).
Outlaws: MCGREGOR (1883) & ass. clans, Glasgow, Glenquaich, Glenalmond and Glengyle.

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Where did grandfather Dugal McGregor alias Grame live in 1712?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 07 October 16 11:08 BST (UK) »
Peter,  a lease & mortgage doesn't exactly describe the situation in Scotland. A tacksman has a kind of lease where he pays rent to the laird & is paid in turn by the tenants & pockets the difference, he might also deal in cattle as well. A wadset is a kind of mortgage whereby the tacksman lends money to the laird & the interest on this pays the rent on the tack, where these exactly balanced was known as a perfect wadset. Both of these should be recorded on the website of the National Archive of Scotland, the trouble being that MacGregors are often recorded with a by-name.  Try both the name & the location in the search-box. In the case of these farms you mention there will probably be several families living at a location, one of which might, or might not, be the tacksman?

Have you checked General Roy's maps, dating from the mid 18th cent', & divided into Highlands & Lowlands, with a zoom-in facility. Showing the number of houses at a locus.

Skoosh.


Offline McGroger

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Re: Where did grandfather Dugal McGregor alias Grame live in 1712?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 07 October 16 12:37 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Skoosh. I’ve used Roy’s maps a couple of times but didn’t realise they displayed the number of houses. They were certainly a remarkable undertaking and accomplishment. Thanks again.

Cheers, Peter
Convicts: COSIER (1791); LEADBEATER (1791); SINGLETON (& PARKINSON) (1792); STROUD (1793); BARNES (aka SYDNEY) (1800); DAVIS (1804); CLARK (1806); TYLER (1810); COWEN (1818); ADAMS[ON] (1821); SMITH (1827); WHYBURN (1827); HARBORNE (1828).
Commoners: DOUGAN (1844); FORD (1849); JOHNSTON (1850); BEATTIE (& LONG) (1856); BRICKLEY (1883).
Outlaws: MCGREGOR (1883) & ass. clans, Glasgow, Glenquaich, Glenalmond and Glengyle.

Offline Skoosh

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Re: Where did grandfather Dugal McGregor alias Grame live in 1712?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 07 October 16 13:19 BST (UK) »
Anent Roy, Peter, folk in the Highlands didn't live in isolation until the sheep farms arrived, these club-farms were the Winter habitation & most of the people spent the Summer months at the shielings, particular areas were allotted to particular club-farms, possibly for centuries.

The raising & droving of cattle was the foundation of the economy & the reason why successful participants had spare cash to lend to lairds. The land of the tack being security for the wadsetter in the event of the laird defaulting & the system kept Edinburgh lawyers in claret for generations.

Rob Roy was in a partnership for droving cattle with a Uist MacDonald? I believe. His partner vanished with the clients cash & Rob got the blame. (It wisnae me, honest!")

Skoosh.

Offline McGroger

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Re: Where did grandfather Dugal McGregor alias Grame live in 1712?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 07 October 16 21:09 BST (UK) »
Thanks again, Skoosh,

Your insight adds light and colour.

Have you read David Stevenson’s 2004 biography, “The Hunt for Rob Roy”? Some have called it a hatchet job but it is simply more forensic, less flavoursome than W H Murray’s 1982 work. Taken together, two great books.

Cheers, Peter
Convicts: COSIER (1791); LEADBEATER (1791); SINGLETON (& PARKINSON) (1792); STROUD (1793); BARNES (aka SYDNEY) (1800); DAVIS (1804); CLARK (1806); TYLER (1810); COWEN (1818); ADAMS[ON] (1821); SMITH (1827); WHYBURN (1827); HARBORNE (1828).
Commoners: DOUGAN (1844); FORD (1849); JOHNSTON (1850); BEATTIE (& LONG) (1856); BRICKLEY (1883).
Outlaws: MCGREGOR (1883) & ass. clans, Glasgow, Glenquaich, Glenalmond and Glengyle.

Offline John Andrew Hutchison

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Re: Where did grandfather Dugal McGregor alias Grame live in 1712?
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 18 November 20 18:43 GMT (UK) »
Hi Peter,

Did you make any progress researching your ancestor? I think he might be the son of who Amelia calls "Gregour Roy in Callichra" in her History. I think the witness Dugal is Gregor/John's grandfather, and Malcom his brother. He was not related to Rob Roy through the paternal line, but his brother appears to have been outlawed with Rob Roy, as there is a gap between 1714 and 1723 in his family. Maybe Gregor/John was also with Rob Roy, especially as his two sons appear to have been with Rob's son James Mór;

1728 Dugall/Agnes Buchanan Mary Innervonichell Killin
1729 Dugall/ Ann Buchanan Gregory Corrycheiroch [Coirechaorach] Killin

1729 John/Christian Duncan Innervonichell Killin

James signed as James Drummond Tacksman of Coriechormich in 1729, (the ruins of which are called Rob Roy's House locally), and had a family with Annabell McNicoll at Innervonichell from 1731.

I think Gregor/John' sister Kathrine was the second wife of James Grame alias Gregor McGregor in Ashlan. He also has a gap with his first wife between 1715 and 1720, and his sons also appear to have also lived in Strath Fillan, and then the Braes of Balquhidder, and I think they later changed their name to Drummond, and then Grierson/Gregorson.

Does this match your records?

If you want I can post how I arrived at this conclusion, using the baptism witnesses of the families above and Amelia's History.

We actually spoke about Rowchnock several years ago, but takes me a while to process information.  :)

John.

Offline John Andrew Hutchison

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Re: Where did grandfather Dugal McGregor alias Grame live in 1712?
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 18 November 20 18:48 GMT (UK) »
Oh, and Amelia calls his brother "Callum Comar". His son also appears to have used the name Greirson, but only for two illegitimate children, usually he used the name Graham.

John.