Author Topic: Crest and Ministers  (Read 1546 times)

Offline ellecat

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Crest and Ministers
« on: Friday 21 October 16 01:23 BST (UK) »
 Hi could  any body tell me in scottish heraldry, if a person has a crest on family silverware that has passed through generations of the family is it likely that they have a shield and therefore a coat of arms. I do realize that many arms are unofficial as they have not been recorded with the Lord Lyon Court.
My earliest ancestor was a minister of the presbetarian church his birth1598 in Northern Scotland.
Was it possible that a  clergymen had a coat of arms. Trying to establish which ancestor first had the crest. As I have three generations of ministers in the family,the answer to  this would help.     
thanks ellecat

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: CREST AND MINISTERS
« Reply #1 on: Friday 21 October 16 07:04 BST (UK) »
Yes if a person has a crest there will be a coat of arms.
However remember that in Scottish Heraldry unlike English Heraldry it is not uncommon for two or more families to use the same crest.
You mention the crest is on silverware is it just the crest or is it the crest badge that is displayed.
The crest badge will also have a motto and the combination of the motto and the crest will be unique.

Cheers
Guy
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http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

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Offline ellecat

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Re: CREST AND MINISTERS
« Reply #2 on: Friday 21 October 16 07:24 BST (UK) »
 Thanks for your reply guy. I was of the same oppion but was not at all sure.
 Still interested in the question can clergy have arms.
 The crest on silverware is a crest only I have not found a reference in books .
Thanks ellecat

Offline KGarrad

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Re: CREST AND MINISTERS
« Reply #3 on: Friday 21 October 16 07:36 BST (UK) »
Quoting from Wikipedia:

In Scottish heraldry there is no such thing as a "family coat of arms". Junior members of a family are assigned specific and relevant differences to the armorial bearings of an ancestor.

Scottish heraldry operates under the supposition that all those who share the same surname are related, however distantly. Consequently, where a coat of arms for the head of a family already exists, new grants of arms to individuals with the same surname will generally be variations on those arms.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_heraldry


You can search the Public Register, either on ScotlandsPeople or at the Court of the Lord Lyon.
see: http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/230.html
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)


Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: CREST AND MINISTERS
« Reply #4 on: Friday 21 October 16 08:19 BST (UK) »
Quoting from Wikipedia:

In Scottish heraldry there is no such thing as a "family coat of arms". Junior members of a family are assigned specific and relevant differences to the armorial bearings of an ancestor.

Scottish heraldry operates under the supposition that all those who share the same surname are related, however distantly. Consequently, where a coat of arms for the head of a family already exists, new grants of arms to individuals with the same surname will generally be variations on those arms.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_heraldry


You can search the Public Register, either on ScotlandsPeople or at the Court of the Lord Lyon.
see: http://www.lyon-court.com/lordlyon/230.html

Quite so but there is a difference between a coat of arms and a crest. It is a crest that is being discussed.
In Scottish herardry it is not uncommon for more than one family to use the same crest (different arms but the same crest).
In such cases where a crest is shown without the arms the different family can be shown by the combination of the crest and the motto such combinations are unique to families.

Cheers
Guy

PS I note the page you linked to states the same
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: CREST AND MINISTERS
« Reply #5 on: Friday 21 October 16 08:25 BST (UK) »
Thanks for your reply guy. I was of the same oppion but was not at all sure.
 Still interested in the question can clergy have arms.
 The crest on silverware is a crest only I have not found a reference in books .
Thanks ellecat

Yes both Scottish and English clergy can have arms, which is not surprising as many clergy come from the ranks of gentry who are entitled to carry arms.
Cheers
Guy
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

As we have gained from the past, we owe the future a debt, which we pay by sharing today.

Offline Skoosh

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Re: CREST AND MINISTERS
« Reply #6 on: Friday 21 October 16 13:51 BST (UK) »
Unlike in England where the younger sons of the gentry often went into the church, Church of Scotland ministers generally did not come off the gentry at all. Clan crests are often used on Scottish silverware & do not indicate that the owner has any pretension to arms.

Skoosh.