Morland Family - Fulham area 1820s

[croz]

Thanks again ... I had the Preston marriage details from the Lancashire record office but I wasn't aware of Margaret Morland's will (I had mis-transposed her 1831 date of death onto my John Morland record). The widow "of Waltham" reference is intriguing as I had always assumed the family were settled either in (central) London (Westminster, Piccadilly etc) or Fulham/Parson's Green (the next generation). I wonder where this particular "Waltham" was .....

John Morland 1775-1845 is another slight enigma....certainly a Sailor or Mariner as recorded on daughters Ann Selina and Margaret marriage certificates in 1843 and 1844 but recorded as "upholsterer" of Parson's Green in the  1841 census. His wife's 1866 death certificate describes her as  "mariner's widow" ..... hard to believe he became a "mariner" AFTER 1841, when he would by my reckoning have been aged 66 ...!

Aways more to investigate !

Thanks again for your help and interest.

[amondg]

In 1841 the John Morland and the Sarah Morland are on the same page in Fulham but not together, John 65 Upholsterer is in a household on his own, then George Keel and wife Emma and family, then Sarah Morland 60 with Jane Matthews 40.

Seems to me that the John Morlands have been confused.

Margaret Morland was of Waltham Green re 1831 will.

Daughter Cordelia was the executrix and when she died her estate was worth under 4000 pounds, even so a lot of money in those days.
Cordelia died 19 June 1864 will proved 11 September 1865.
Formerly of Marlborough Wiltshire now of 7 Queens Terrace Hammersmith.
It would be worth getting a copy as she died a spinster family relationships will be mentioned.

1861 Cordelia Morland is 79 years old and blind listed as an Aunt living with Cordelia Faulkner 52 spinster plus others at 2 Queens Terrace Hammersmith.

It stand to reason that her sister Margaret married John Faulkner 1802, what puzzled me is that Margaret senior the mother 1831 referred to her as daughter Margaret not as my daughter Margaret wife of John Faulkner when she wrote he will in 1812, but maybe its just an anomaly.

If the Sarah Morland living in the alms houses was the wife of John why didn't the rest of the family
help her out or take her in as was done with Cordelia, besides that Sarah 1851, 1861 says she was born Sussex not Middlesex.
ADDED as per your comment that Sarah was the wife of a mariner, so definitely the wrong Sarah.

[amondg]

If you have access to ancestry, read the will of John Faulkner written 22 January 1850 proved 20 September 1854, he was of Fulham a builder and had many many properties some in Waltham Green, so perhaps that's why his mother in law Margaret Morland was in Waltham Green 1831 when she died.
The will mentions daughters Cordelia, Emma Jane, Sophia who get the bulk of his estate daughter Charlotte and son (Frederic?)
No wife mentioned so Margaret nee Morland died previous.

No mention of Matthew their brother age 39 living with them 1861.

[amondg]

Who are the witnesses to the marriage of John Limpus and Ann Morland 1843 as you have the certificate.

Added
The witnesses may help with the following message

[amondg]

Question
Margaret Morland married Thomas Thorne 6 March 1844, her father John Morland/ mariner.His father Samuel Thorne/ coach painter
he witnesses are Samuel Thorne and Ann Selina Morland.

So if her sister Ann Selina Morland married John Limpus 1843 why does she sign her name Ann Selina Morland it should be Ann Selina Limpus.

[croz]

Good question and that has been noticed by others.....no obvious explanation....marriage to John Limpus is confirmed as 1843, I have the certificate......and that marriage was, according to family tradition, shared by other lines, the reason for Ann Selina being "disowned"....with John Limpus being described by some as "gardener on the Morland estate" (although no evidence of any "estate" seems to exist....and I think the gardener assumption comes from his address...Gardeners Lane Putney) or more accurately, as shown on the marriage cert "Footman". His father was, however, as shown on the cert  Charles Limpus .."gardener". There is no evidence they eloped or married in secret and the wedding was in church (St Mary Le Strand, Middlesex) after banns. Neither witness was a Morland, which may or may not be significant as I am aware that marriage witnesses were often church "employees" rather than family members ? Witnesses were James Limpus and Emily (in distinct but looks like "Samber"
James D Limpus birth cert 1848 shows mother as Ann Selina Limpus, formerly Morland and John Limpus occupation as servant..at this time they were living in Brighton.

[Lily M]

I see a couple of trees on Ancestry have Ann Selina's birth date as 4th June 1820.

Do you know how they came up with the exact date?  The Fulham baptisms for that time aren't online anywhere, but I wonder if the original book is still being kept somewhere.   It would be interesting to see what her father's occupation was at that time.

I believe it's possible to be a member of a livery company without actually working at that occupation.   A Mariner seems a strange alternative though.

[croz]

I had her baptism (rather than birth) date as 4 June 1820 on an extensive (and pre-internet)  family tree  revised in  1990 (from an original produced in 1974) by a descendant (Brian Rollason) of Ann Selina Morland's sister, Margaret ELizabeth Morland, through her marriage to John Faulkner. Where the precise  4 June date came from I do not know .... it was this 1990 version tree that showed John Morland (Ann Selina's father) as "sailor then upholsterer" although the census and marriage cert information now available suggest that it should have been "upholsterer" (1841 census) then "sailor" (1843 and 1844 marriage certs).....although that now makes little sense given that a change in occupation ..and becoming a sailor or mariner between 1841 and 1843, at the age of 65 ...seems unlikely. There certainly was a John Morland, upholsterer, right age and location on the 1841 census.

Ann Selina Morland's signature witnessing her sister's marriage ( using her single name , rather than married name, Limpus) is perpetually intriguing...unless she was in some way "hiding" her marriage to John Limpus  - eight months previously - from other family members (ie her parents....) ...given the story popular among other descendants that the relationship with the "footman" John Limpus was a cause of family concern....even though her wedding was in church  (although neither witness was a Morland)..see previous posts ! Looking again at dates, I see John and Ann Selina Limpus had a first child, Emily Elizabeth, in 1844 (she died in infancy...the same year, although I do not have precise dates)... I wonder if that has any bearing on the need for the marriage in 1843 (!). Second child, James Dainty Limpus (my g-grandfather) was not born until 1848, when Ann Selina and John were living in Brighton where he was a "servant".

[Lily M]

Unfortunately, we can only speculate as to the Ann Selina Morland signature.   My guess would be "out of habit" and not concentrating.

I wouldn't have thought anyone would care that she married a footman, as her sister also married a servant.  He's on the 1851 census as a coachman for a baroness.