Author Topic: Marriage St james Sydney 1842 Thomas LEE Ann WAIT  (Read 1347 times)

Offline judb

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Re: Marriage St james Sydney 1842 Thomas LEE Ann WAIT
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 12:07 GMT (UK) »
Thanks, Merlin - was worth a look!

Judith
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Re: Marriage St james Sydney 1842 Thomas LEE Ann WAIT
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 21:23 GMT (UK) »
I think civil registration didn't start till the 1850s so perhaps the record never reached the BMDs.  I guess JM might be along soon to help with this!

and

There are plenty of events missing from the online indexes.  If it was the C of E St James I would bet that the number for the entry is 103/1842 V1842104 26C.

Marriages in the index for St James C of E (groom surname) in 1842 - Church Code CJ:

Missing entry 103/1842 V1842104 26C

I would contact the Registry and ask them about that missing entry.

and I am confident that :

It is very likely that Debra has found the missing reference number,  line 103.

Back in the 1980s, when the NSW BDM was transferring the details from the manual system to their then computerised system, they did so via the then ‘latest technology’.  That technology was the EDP card system.   Anyone remember what happened if a card was damaged, jammed, etc?  What happened to the data?   Well, what if there were apparent duplications?  What happened then? 

So, from familysearch online there’s a Thomas LEE marrying an Ann WAIT  and there’s a Thomas LEE marrying a Mary CLARKE, both marriages are recorded in Church of England parish registers held in Sydney NSW, and both marriages are in January 1842.   

I suggest that perhaps at some early stage during the introduction of the EDP system someone may have drawn the conclusion that there was a duplication, and the second card was removed to 'FILE 13". 

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCP-VB3   Thomas LEE Mary CLARKE,  St Laurence, Sydney.    21 Jan 1842

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCP-Z6N  Thomas LEE  Ann WAIT,  St James, Sydney 27 Jan 1842

Both St Laurence and St James are well known Anglican Churches within the Sydney CBD.   The NSW BDM’s Early Church Records for CofE marriages in Sydney Town in 1842 are part of Volume 26C.   Both the above marriages should be in that Volume, and the one that is currently displayed at NSWBDM’s online index IS shown as Volume 26C  (Thomas LEE and Mary CLARKE is at line 198.   (198/1842 V1842198 26C)

St Laurence is Christ Church St Laurence, near to Central Station, Sydney 2000
http://www.ccsl.org.au/

St James is : http://sjks.org.au/

Quite a number of years ago now, when I was actively transcribing parish registers, I came across a Sydney CBD parish register with several hundred entries that were not showing up on the NSW BDM online index, NOR on the CD/film etc at either NSW State Library or elsewhere.

It took some effort but once NSW BDM was sure that these were extant records, and after the major upgrade to their website, the entries now are part of the online index.   

Well sorted Debra !

JM

PS when contacting the NSW BDM do not rely on the 'call centre' response.  You want a response from the Executive team.  Call centre operators can be relied on to mis-understand many aspects of the Early Church Records.   I have first hand experience of being TOLD that "V" stands for Vital Records.  (It doesn't, it represents the Volume of the ledger compiled in the 1910-1915 era).

 http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/about-us/history-of-the-registry.aspx

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-registers-1787-1856

https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/births-deaths-and-marriages-guide

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Re: Marriage St james Sydney 1842 Thomas LEE Ann WAIT
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 21:57 GMT (UK) »
Ann WAIT

I wonder if this is her? If so, she was Born in the Colony.

Ann Wiat / Ann Weat, daughter of John Wiat /John Weat & Mary Wiat / Mary Weat; Born 5 Aug 1824 County of Argyle, Baptised 8 Dec 1824, by Reverend Thomas Reddall, Registered at St Peter's Church of England Campbelltown, Airds County.

Baptism  C of E  (It is in Volume 1B  :) )

Ann, daughter of John and Mary WIAT, 
NSW BDM has : WIAT (notice the spelling) 1824, Line 6804 of Volume 1B

Ann daughter of John and Mary WEAT is noted at the Biological Database of Australia as born 5 August 1824, in the Country of Argyle, and baptised by Rev Thomas REDDALL 8 December 1824 at Campbelltown (St Peters C of E), Airds County. 

http://www.bda-online.org.au/  BDA is a non profit project.  There is a nominal fee for annual subscriptions.   You can search the indexes for free.

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Send me a PM to seek my express permission to use any information I post. Wait for my reply, do not take for granted you have any authority to copy paste my words.
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Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
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Offline CassT

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Re: Marriage St james Sydney 1842 Thomas LEE Ann WAIT
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 22:14 GMT (UK) »
JM

Many thanks for your fantastic explanation, the things I  learn on Roots chat  are wonderful

After I found this section on the NSW BDM site "Ask our staff if you are having difficulties with your Registry family history searches (current response time is within 10 working days)" last night I sent an email explaining the information on Family Search and what Debra had found about  the missing reference, asking about the marriage and the Index.

I thought an email might be best as sometimes when I cannot see the person I am talking to  I get confused when trying to explain things over  the phone.

When I receive a reply I will update this post,

Cass


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Re: Marriage St james Sydney 1842 Thomas LEE Ann WAIT
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 22:22 GMT (UK) »
If you get a 'dunno' type reply, please do contact me by PM.   Among my 'phone a friend' contacts are older relatives including retired senior officers from NSW BDM.   ;D  ;D  ;D

There's several possibilities for Ann, the 1842 bride for Thomas LEE, and I am sure that several  RChat regulars will be actively working through some of those.   :)

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Send me a PM to seek my express permission to use any information I post. Wait for my reply, do not take for granted you have any authority to copy paste my words.
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
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Offline CassT

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Re: Marriage St james Sydney 1842 Thomas LEE Ann WAIT
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 22:51 GMT (UK) »
JM
The possible spelling of Ann's surname is expanding, Wait, Wiat, Weat, Waite, also White, I am hoping that IF I can get a marriage cert it may give information on both Ann and Thomas parents names . On Eliza and Thomas Marriage, there is no information on Thomas parents.

Also as Thomas made his mark with a X on his will and marriage to Eliza, the odds are he did not know the correct spelling of Ann's surname, maybe the mystery of Ann will remain a mystery

Thank you for your kind offer re PM,

regards

Cass

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Re: Marriage St james Sydney 1842 Thomas LEE Ann WAIT
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 07 December 16 23:03 GMT (UK) »
If you have access to the NSW State Library, (Macquarie St, Sydney) you could actually go through the film for the LEE = CLARKE marriage (line 198), and look backwards to find line 103 !  It should show who gave consent if either party was under 21, and also it MAY show if either was still under a current sentence (Bond etc) and there's a slight chance it may even show ship of arrival.   

JM  :)

ADD

do remember to keep in mind the ALLEN=WAITE marriage of 1843.  See Merlin's earlier replies # 7 & 8. 

The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Send me a PM to seek my express permission to use any information I post. Wait for my reply, do not take for granted you have any authority to copy paste my words.
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Re: Marriage St james Sydney 1842 Thomas LEE Ann WAIT
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 08 December 16 05:30 GMT (UK) »
Hi
I am wondering if another pair of eyes might be able to find details on the NSW BDM Index of a marriage which occurred on 27 Jan 1842 between Thomas LEE and Ann WAIT  at St James, Sydney NSW.................

http://www.lpi.nsw.gov.au/land_titles/historical_research/parish_maps  Search using Cumberland as a key word  :)


The NSW County of Cumberland has existed since Governor Phillip's era.  It still exists, and is part of the identifying system for anyone with title deeds to real estate in its boundaries.  One of the parishes within the County of Cumberland is the parish of St James.   St Mary’s Cathedral is located in the civil parish of St James.   

From https://www.sydneycatholic.org/works/all_agencies_in_sydney.asp?ID=77 

“Prior to March 1856 when Civil Registration began in New South Wales details on certificates were taken from Church registers. A certificate that refers to the "Parish of St James, County of Cumberland" refers to the geographic area of St Mary's in the colonial period, that is, the central Sydney area, not to records that are kept at St James Church or to St Mary's Cathedral.”

From NSW State Archives
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/archives/collections-and-research/guides-and-indexes/county-parish-maps-guide 

From National Library
http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/1153005  Map  :)

From Wiki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumberland_County,_New_South_Wales
"Many of the parishes founded in 1835 kept the name of the district. Others were named after Anglican churches in the same area. This included three of the four small parishes in the Sydney city area; St Philip (named after St.Philip's), St James (named after St. James, and which is still the region name today), St Andrew (named after St. Andrew's). However St Lawrence parish gave its name to the church, rather than the other way around"   (JM notes that the civil parish of St Lawrence existed prior to the construction of the Church building on the donated land)

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Send me a PM to seek my express permission to use any information I post. Wait for my reply, do not take for granted you have any authority to copy paste my words.
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline CassT

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Re: Marriage St james Sydney 1842 Thomas LEE Ann WAIT COMPLETED
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 20 June 18 01:42 BST (UK) »
There are plenty of events missing from the online indexes.  If it was the C of E St James I would bet that the number for the entry is 103/1842 V1842104 26C.

Marriages in the index for St James C of E (groom surname) in 1842 - Church Code CJ:

10 Jan LAYZELL 97/1842 V1842104 26C
17 Jan BROOKER 98/1842 V1842104 26C
18 Jan BARR  99/1842 V1842104 26C
19 Jan GRIMSHAW 100/1842 V1842104 26C
20 Jan SPEED 101/1842 V1842104 26C
27 Jan MATTHEWS 102/1842 V1842104 26C
Missing entry 103/1842 V1842104 26C
1 Feb VENOUR 104/1842 V1842104 26C

I would contact the Registry and ask them about that missing entry.

Debra  :D

Well 2 years have past since my post, from memory I contacted the Registry and got no where, so this search was put into my to hard folder.

A couple of weeks ago I decided to send a email of to the NSW State Library asking if they would search the microfilm of St James marriages for a record of Thomas Lee / Ann Wait marriage.

I have received a reply with a copy of the entry in the Church register, which includes a portion of the next entry.

Debra you where correct the next entry is a marriage between Thomas Henry Blackburn VERNON and Marion Nathan.

The entry for Thomas Lee and Ann Wait records that they were married by licence, no details of age, parents, arrival.  It does record that Ann was of "this Parish a spinster" and Thomas was of the parish of St Bar??? Bachelor.  Both have use a X for their signature. My Thomas also used a X on his will and Second Marriage.

Belated thanks to all and also thank you to the staff at the NSW State Library

Cass