Author Topic: Isabella Fraser (mother of Ann Lyall, nee Dick who died 1936)  (Read 994 times)

Offline contarini

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Isabella Fraser (mother of Ann Lyall, nee Dick who died 1936)
« on: Tuesday 13 December 16 21:01 GMT (UK) »
I am trying to find out more information about Isabella Fraser, and who her parents were.

On the death certificate of Ann Lyall dated 10th March 1936, it states that she was the widow of George Lyall and she died at 40 High Street, Buckie. Her father is given as William Dick, Tinsmith and her mother as Isabella Dick, ms Fraser. Other sources give Ann Lyall's mother as Margaret Sinclair. Can anyone help please?

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Online Millmoor

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Re: Isabella Fraser (mother of Ann Lyall, nee Dick who died 1936)
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 13 December 16 21:59 GMT (UK) »
Hi

The marriage of William Dick and Margaret Sinclair did not take place until 1851 - I note that Ann Lyall was born in 1849. The  excellent "libindx" has an entry for William Dick, tinsmith - his children with Margaret Sinclair are all named. Ann is not and, given that I cannot see a previous marriage for William, it looks likely that Ann was illegitimate.

If you have access to FindMyPast they have digitised a book called Banffshire the People and the Lands. This has a digest of Kirk Session Records from a  number of parishes including Rathven - you might find a reference to William Dick and Isabella Fraser there.(I found the admonishment of my own gg grandparents in that source!).

My other suggestion is that it might be worth checking the 1841 and 1851 censuses for Isabella Frasers in the area and try to narrow the field by a process of elimination, bearing in mind that Isabella may have gone on to marry someone other than William Dick. (This is a pattern I have seen in  my own Banffshire research - couple have illegitimate child and then go on to marry  different partners).

William
Dent (Haltwhistle and Sacriston), Bell and Jetson (Haltwhistle), Postle, Ward, Longstaff, Purvis, Manners, Parnaby and Hardy (Co. Durham), Kennedy and McRobert (Banffshire), Reid(Bathgate), Watson (Wemyss), Graham (Libberton), Sandilands (Carmichael), Munro (Dingwall)

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Offline contarini

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Re: Isabella Fraser (mother of Ann Lyall, nee Dick who died 1936)
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 13 December 16 22:06 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks for your suggestions William.

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Isabella Fraser (mother of Ann Lyall, nee Dick who died 1936)
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 14 December 16 09:31 GMT (UK) »
I am trying to find out more information about Isabella Fraser, and who her parents were.
Other sources give Ann Lyall's mother as Margaret Sinclair. Can anyone help please?
What are these 'other sources'?
See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0

According to the IGI Annie Dick and George Lyall were married in Aberdeen Old Machar on 20 December 1869. If I were you I would go straight for that marriage certificate, available at modest cost at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. Even if someone got the names of Ann's parents wrong on her death certificate, she would surely have been able to get them right on her marriage certificate.

BTW for the avoidance of duplication this thread is a continuation of
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=760877.0
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline contarini

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Re: Isabella Fraser (mother of Ann Lyall, nee Dick who died 1936)
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 14 December 16 09:49 GMT (UK) »
Dear Forfarian,

Yes the marriage certificate gives Annie Dick's mother as Isabellla Fraser. It was several family trees produced by cousins that initially confused me. I am still interested to investigate more about Isabella Fraser...

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Isabella Fraser (mother of Ann Lyall, nee Dick who died 1936)
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 14 December 16 12:07 GMT (UK) »
Well, if the marriage and death certificate both say her mother was Isabella Fraser, you are pretty safe to assume that her mother was Isabella Fraser.

I can see exactly why they might have thought her mother was Margaret Sinclair, however. The transcription of the 1861 census at http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl lists the family in Rathven
William Dick, 37, ironmonger, plumber, bell hanger, tinsmith etc
Margaret Dick, wife, 36, born Ordiquhill
Anne Dick, daughter, 12
Harriot Mary Stewart Dick, daughter, 6
Jessie Mabel Smith Dick, daughter, 3
Margaret Ann Dick, 1
all born Rathven except Margaret who was born in Ordiquhill.

The census index at SP lists Ann Dick, aged 2, in a household in Rathven with Elizabeth Dick, 66. Using the reference (ED1, page 11) I was able to scroll back and see that FreeCEN lists them as Pick! Elizabeth Pick, 66, widow, born Balvenie, and Ann Pick, granddaughter, aged 2, born Bogmoor.

Bogmoor is in on the right bank of the River Spey north of Fochabers. This is a slightly anomalous area, because sometimes it is enumerated in the parish of Bellie in Moray, and sometimes in the parish of Enzie in Banffshire. Enzie. Parts of Rathven are also sometimes enumerated in Enzie, so it can be confusing. See http://www.abdnet.co.uk/genuki/BAN/Enzie/index.html

It's also useful to bear in mind that Enzie remained largely Roman Catholic when neighbouring parishes became Protestant, so it is always worth checking Roman Catholic records for anyone with a connection to Enzie.

Balvenie is just outside Dufftown, in the parish of Mortlach in Banffshire.

FreeCEN also lists in 1851 William Pick, 27, copper and tin smith, born Buckie, with wife Margaret, born Cornhill, Banffshire. Cornhill is in the parish of Ordiquhill.

In 1841 there is a household consisting of James Dick, copper smith; Elisbath Dick, 56; and Joseph Dick, 20, occupation transcribed as teetotaler and annotated 'age unclear'.

I recommend viewing the originals of all these censuses on SP to make sure that you check and decide for yourself any transcription errors!
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline contarini

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Re: Isabella Fraser (mother of Ann Lyall, nee Dick who died 1936)
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 14 December 16 17:54 GMT (UK) »
Many thanks for all your helpful information. 5856 posts is pretty impressive!