Author Topic: BRASH in and near Abercorn  (Read 2962 times)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #36 on: Wednesday 27 June 18 16:31 BST (UK) »
I wasn't really expecting any of them to link up, but one never knows.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

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Offline Southpaw58

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #37 on: Tuesday 03 July 18 05:08 BST (UK) »
Hi Forfarian
Thanks for the insight to your tree.  I had done a bit of research on that branch given all the "Johns" in the Brash tree.  Your James Brash had a prominent life according to the Obituary in the Linlithgow Gazette 29/7/1893 that I read.  I wonder if you have managed to get back earlier than Thomas and Elizabeth Gowans?  My theory is that that Thomas was the son of John Brash and Janet Moor/Mure/Muir but you may have better evidence than me.  I haven't found a link to them - yet - never say never!

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Offline Southpaw58

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #38 on: Tuesday 03 July 18 06:12 BST (UK) »
Hi Fordyce
Sorry for delayed response - have not had access to my records for a few days.

Re:Soldier John Brash:
Actually you've given me a really good steer.  I had been searching in the same place as you on the TNA but was using the regiment name not the Colonel so your pointer to records for Col. Hackett was really helpful!  Thank you.

Re John Brash options:
The plot thickens! 

30/1/1776 John Brash - appreciate your comments given your knowledge of that branch of the tree.  Sounds logical to me. I had not searched for Christian's DC. 

In relation to the others, I was looking for potential DC for John Brash who married Janet McKomy
not their son John. 

I needed to review my docs before responding as I was a bit confused by your comment on Agnes.  The Agnes Brash who married David Brown in 1792 I have as the da. of John Brash and Agnes Thomson.  I had only reviewed their MC for Abercorn not the one for Edinburgh - which does add the datapoint about her father being deceased and a farmer as you point out.  If I have read it correctly, the BC for John B born 1760 son of John B and Agnes Thomson suggests the father is "John Brash younger" which I took to mean his father was John Brash and he was still alive at the time of their marriage in 1758.   I have only found two options where there is a John Brash born to a John Brash in this period - son of John Brash and Christian Greenlaw or John Brash and Janet Thorntoun.  I had assumed that John B h/o Agnes Thomson was the son of John B and Christian Greenlaw as their first daughter is called Christian.  I could be getting myself tied in knots about now.

There is one other John Brash which I have not been able to trace as yet - John Brash born 1700 - son of Walter Brash and Helen Lindsay - who was alive in 1733 to erect the grave to his father?  Do you have any insights on him/his decendents? 

Hope I haven't confused things more.  Appreciate your insights - you have obviously done A LOT of research.
Cheers

Offline Southpaw58

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #39 on: Tuesday 03 July 18 07:13 BST (UK) »
Hi ThrelfallYorky
Thanks for the insight to your branch.  Do you have records from Scotland's people for your dates?  I haven't come across a link to Downies so far.  I do have a Margaret Dowie who I believe was born in Kirkliston in 1808 who married one of my GGG grandfather (John Brash - yes, another John!) in 1833 - the MC suggests she is from Linlithgow at the time of their marriage.  As Fordyce suggests, there is a branch of the family tree we are both researching that was in Linlithgow from the 1600's so you never know - there could be a link yet to be discovered.
Kind regards

Offline ThrelfallYorky

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #40 on: Tuesday 03 July 18 15:44 BST (UK) »
I'll have to do a bit of digging in my files - she wasn't in my direct line, "merely" married in, and then - as one does when you feel you've pretty much tidied up your direct line, you start fussing around the edges, and I found myself following that line too. I'll post what I KNOW on here, when I find it.
Meantime - keep on, it's fascinating!
TY
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)

Offline Fordyce

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #41 on: Tuesday 10 July 18 23:15 BST (UK) »
Hi Southpaw58
Sorry for my delay - my excuse is the computer terminally failed (motherboard caput) - migrating to a new machine tests the patience of a saint (me!) even with everything already fully backed-up.

<<If I have read it correctly, the BC for John B born 1760 son of John B and Agnes Thomson suggests the father is "John Brash younger" which I took to mean his father was John Brash and he was still alive at the time of their marriage in 1758.   I have only found two options where there is a John Brash born to a John Brash in this period - son of John Brash and Christian Greenlaw or John Brash and Janet Thorntoun.  I had assumed that John B h/o Agnes Thomson was the son of John B and Christian Greenlaw as their first daughter is called Christian.>>

I've given it much thought, and decided to look at it in this way:-

1. The qualification 'younger' is my starting point:
Yes it's John Brash younger in Newtown, but that doesn't necessarily mean his father was John Brash older. It can mean that there was another (not necessarily related) John Brash in Newton who happened to be older. It's a very useful qualification to have but it isn't unambiguous!

2. So, who is the 'older'?
It's fair to say these two John Brashes were definitely in Newton in 1760:
- John Brash younger & Agnes Thomson were in Newton in 1760 (and still there in 1762 having another child).
- John Brash & Janet Cumming were in Newton in 1759 and 1761 having children, so they were surely in Newton in 1760 too.
So, you'd think that John Brash h/o Janet Cummin would thus be John Brash older.

But here's a third, seemingly even older:
- John Brash wright h/o Jean Richie was in Newton 1757 and 1764, also having children, so presumably in 1760 too.
So now we have two John Brashes older than John Brash younger (there being three John Brashes co-living in Newton the qualification ought have been 'youngest' or similar). Doesn't make sense.

One way of reconciling this is that John Brash & Jean Richie left Newton for a few years and returned (so that John Brash h/o Janet Cumming was then the only older). But having said that, the births in 1759, 1761, 1762 are all unqualified. As well, we have a fourth:-
- John Brash h/o Christian Greenlaw seems to have been alive in 1760 and therefore would have been in Newton then, which also qualifies him to be the implied John Brash older. Again, two John Brash olders - not acceptable.

We can perhaps reconcile that by
a. This John Brash didn't die in 1776 as I've suggested; instead he died before 1760.
b. Therefore, perhaps it was John Brash wright h/o Jean Richie who died in 1776.
c.  Also that John Brash b 1736 s/o John Brash & Christian Greenlaw had either died by 1760 or had moved away.

But rather than looking at there being only two John Brashes around at the same time, one being older the other being younger, I could reconcile all this by saying that John Brash younger (h/o Agnes Thomson) was so qualified only because his still-alive father was also named John Brash; and that any other John Brashes are not qualified because the father-and-son both alive combo doesn't apply.

Looking at dates, I think it's reasonable to propose that Agnes Brash h/o David Brown is d/o John Brash & Agnes Thomson (ages fit), thus making John Brash h/o Agnes Thomson the farmer in Newton, with an illeg dau Elizabeth who died a child in 1756.

By this convoluted route, I can then stitch everything together by having John Brash h/o Agnes Thomson being John Brash younger, the son of the still alive John Brash older h/o Christian Greenlaw (John Brash older indeed dying in 1776).

3. Now, that doesn't alter my view that John Brash h/o Mary Wallace is not John Brash younger's son. John Brash (h/o Mary Wallace) age upon death in 1850 (83) implies a birth year of 1766/67, and this is consistent with his age recorded in 1841 (70). If he were born in 1760, he ought to have been recorded as 80 in 1841 and 90 in 1850. 

4. There's a slot for John Brash (h/o Janet Cummins) to be s/o John Brash & Janet Thorntoun. To maintain the argument above, John Brash (h/o Janet Thorntoun) would have to be dead or no longer in Abercorn. And my notes have this family group disappear after 1734, so that fits.

5. This leaves John Brash h/o Mary Wallace being the s/o John Brash & Janet McComie. And of course this family group doesn't spoil the argument above.

I think this has 'soaked' up everybody, with everybody slotted in somewhere with at least some semblence of a defendable rationale......

<<There is one other John Brash which I have not been able to trace as yet - John Brash born 1700 - son of Walter Brash and Helen Lindsay - who was alive in 1733 to erect the grave to his father?  Do you have any insights on him/his decendents? >>
No!
That's the long and the short of it.
Walter Brash was a tenant in Philpston, as was his father also Walter.
I have nothing which suggests the family moved on. I do have a John Brash (d 1766) & Marjory Cant (d 1755) who marr 5-10-1727 Carriden and had family and died all in Bo'Ness; he could, datewise, be the one from Philpston, but I've no other reason why he should. One of their children could, again datewise, be my Betty Brash, which is why I'm keeping an eye on this family group.

Hope the above makes sense. I think we've made progress!

Offline Southpaw58

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #42 on: Thursday 19 July 18 02:10 BST (UK) »
Hi Fordyce
So sorry to hear about your computer failure.  At least you had backups but I understand what an enormous hassle that is and would definitely test the patience of anyone.

Sorry my response is delayed.  I need to change some settings so I know when something's added to this discussion.  Newbie error.

Thank you for your detailed response.  You are very generous with your time and insights.  It’s always useful to have assumptions made explicit and tested ie my interpretation of “younger”. 

If only  the death records provided a bit more information on age it would be so much easier.  Ha ha.  I do wonder about my assumptions on:
-   fluidity of occupations – I note that John B h/o Christian Greenlaw is listed fairly consistently as a smith but on the last daughter’s birth he is noted as a “wright” in Newton.  Of-course that could just be a mistake in the record keeping – easy to do.
-   the definition of “farmer” – I assume there is a distinction between a tenant and a farmer although I recognise the term tenant farmer is also used.  Having said that, the notation of John B h/o Mary Wallace/Betty Brown as a farmer at the age of 70 in the 1841 census makes me wonder if the term could be used in a number of ways.  I know I’m not helping here – just thinking out loud to see if my assumptions need some realignment.

I can’t comment on the idea of “Elizabeth da to farmer John B who died in 1756” being the illegitimate daughter of John B/Agnes Thomson”.  I agree the reference to her father being a farmer implies a link.  I don’t know how often an illegitimate birth was not recorded given the times.  Hard to tell.

In relation to potentials for John s/o Walter Brash and Helen Lindsay:
-   John B/Marjory Cant – hmmmm, I am a little confused by that couple.  I had assumed the DR for John B 30/3/1755 in Bo’ness – workman killed accidentally was that John as there is a death record for Eliz Brash 30/7/1742 “da to John Brash (workman) /Marjory Canle? In B’Ness.  ie picking up on the similarity of the use of the “workman” occupation.  But then Marjory’s death 3/4/1766 says she is the spouse of John Brash – which I understood to suggest he was still alive whereas relict would imply he had died.  Again, these could all be just the different ways the clerks recorded things.  It is certainly clear that the format, style and detail of the records changed over time.
-   There is another John Brash that I am yet to place.  I only came across this one as there is a death record for Ann Bartholomens 2/1/1759 – who is noted as the spouse to John B Duntarvie.   I have not found a marriage record or any births to this couple.  Either they never had children or this could be a later in life second marriage.  Hard to tell without more data.   

Perhaps there is data there that is yet to be found that will help to triangulate the existing data points.  Sorry to not have much of use to add right now. 

Offline Fordyce

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn - Part I
« Reply #43 on: Friday 20 July 18 21:16 BST (UK) »
Hi Southpaw58. Back up and running! Four topics in response to your latest.

Smith/Wright: There's always something! I had noted that "I don't understand why I couldn't find her baptism in the Abercorn OPR". I've had the actual microfilm from the LDS for Abercorn out at least once, yet I couldn't ever find Ann's 1751 entry. Got it from SP now.

Note too that Ann is said to be their fifth dau - yet she is their sixth so I'm taking from that that fifth dau Janet born in 1749 died infancy. Being recorded as a wright (at the same time as John Brash h/o Jean Richie is being recorded a wright too) does indeed undermine my regarding smith and wright as discrete occupations. However, I don't think, on its own, it alters the Brash tree as I have it.

Milton, Dalmeny: I've revisited Milton, Dalmeny, like so:-
1841 families at Milton Dalmeny:
   Farmer (Brash family)
   Female Servant (young Helen Wood)
   Ag Lab (Wright family)
   Ag Lab (Taylor family)
1851 families at Milton Dalmeny:
   William Thomson Farmer 140 acres, with a household of six others inc his mother
   Farm Servant (Elder family)
   Day Labourer Agr (Reid family)
1861 families at Milton Dalmeny:
   William Thomson Farmer 124 ac 3m 1, with a household of six others
   Ploughman (Cameron family)
   Ploughman (Marshall family)
   Wandour (wanderer, i.e. tramp? - two Monteiths)

The farmer William Thomson had been a farmer in 1841 at Moss Hall Whitburn WLN.

It's hard not to conclude that Milton was a decent sized farm, requiring two Ag Labs to assist the Farmer, with the elderly Brashes having a lassie to sort the house. Thus John Brash was a 'proper' farmer, not just pottering around a few acres after retirement.

It's therefore even more difficult to square John Brash the farmer in 1841 being the John Brash said by his family to have been a quarryman (presuming that 'dairyman' is no more than a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of 'quarryman').

I can only leave that lying on the table.

John Brash & Marjory Cant: I agree - it doesn't hang together as might be expected.

SP has indexed Marjory Cant incorrectly - she died 31-3-1766 buried 1-4-1766. I notice on the same page an entry has " ---- spouse to the deceast ----" which adds more support that John Brash was still alive.

Also:-
- Margaret Brash 15-8-1740 Jno Brash & Marjory Caul 663/50 232 Bo'Ness - SPI
- Eliz Brash 30-7-1742 Jno Brash & Marjory Canle 663/50 239 Bo'Ness - SPI
This last at least allows me to exclude her from being my Betty Brash, so that's one candidate struck off my list.
Furthermore, given the forename Matthew in this family group, perhaps this John Brash is s/o Mathew Brash & Margaret Potter. I've allocated him there, pro tem. I've also accepted, pro tem, that John Brash had predeceased his wife - this becomes relevant below.

I've exceeded RootsChat's limit - part II to follow - you'll like it!

Offline Fordyce

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn - Part II
« Reply #44 on: Friday 20 July 18 21:18 BST (UK) »
Ann Bartholomens: This was news to me. Isobel Brash (deemed to be sister of my Betty Brash) marr James Bartholomew in 1767. This family has several mentions of Uphall in later years. I have noted: "I believe James Bartholomew was a farmer whose origins were in Kirkliston rather than in Abercorn, although it appears that Bartholomews were long-established at Duntarvie/Tottlingwells". From a biography of Sir Frank Charles Mears: "...the Bartholemews having been farmers of Duntarvie on the Hopetoun Estate since the mid 17th century" - www.scottisharchitects.org.uk/architect_full.php?id=202402. There is also mention of "Mr. James Bartholomew of Duntarvie" in www.scottishshale.co.uk/DigitalAssets/pdf/LVSAV/LVSAV2016.090.pdf (History & Antiquities of the Parish Of Uphall) but I'm unsure of the date.

My Thomas Shatton & Betty Brash didn't arrive on the scene until 1772 at Craigton, then renting "part of Duntarvie" in 1787, so a good deal later than 1759. He was a subtenant, the tenant being George Henderson, a dynamic character with tenancies of dozens of farms and even more subtenants, who got a 26 year tenancy in 1777, which is still well after John Brash & Ann Batholomew might have been there.

Without going into detail here, in trying to establish the parentage of James Bartholomew, it became very clear that the surname Bartholomew was interchangeable with the surname Barclay! Explicit evidence is on page 39 of the Uphall book, and it's now clear why previous researchers were looking for Barclay as well as Bartholomew.  It's just dawned upon me that I have a John Brash marry Ann Barclay 25-12-1740 Abercorn; they had a son Walter 6-8-1741 Addistown, Abercorn. Surely this Ann Barclay will be the Ann Bartholomens who died in 1759! (BTW the image is clear enough it's Bartholomew misindexed as Bartholomens.)

So: "Ann Bartholomew 2-1-1759 spouse to John Brash in Duntarvie got the 2nd Mortcloth being poor pay nothing." "Being poor" because she's a widow? Note again that, if so, the husband predeceased the wife and yet she is called his spouse.

This record shows a Brash presence in Duntarvie from way back: Hearth Tax 1691: Duntarvie: William Brash (ScotlandsPlaces E69/24/1/5). I have assigned him, rightly or wrongly, to William Brash h/o Grissel Patteron who marr 18-7-1678, parents of the Mathew Brash who married Margaret Potter.

Run out of steam now! But progress. Given my Thomas Shatton was a farmer and with his and Betty Brash's connection with Duntarvie, I remain not 100% comfortable with her being d/o smith John Brash & Christian Greenlaw, and now here's a possibility that my Betty Brash could be d/o John Brash & Ann Bartholomew.

I think we're working as a team here. In view of my exceeding RootsChat's limit, would you care to send me your email address in a PM?