Author Topic: BRASH in and near Abercorn  (Read 1186 times)

Offline Fordyce

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 20 July 17 23:46 BST (UK) »
Forfarian, yes ScotlandsPlaces has been checked, including Poll Tax records. Also all the available old maps at the NLS. There is nowhere that looks remotely like Golphole or Had...etc.

I also found a third reference, in the Mortcloth Rights of 1754, to a William Russell who was a quarrier and indweller in Hadyquiel. The context is such that I infer that the place was very close to a feature marked in the 1st edition OS maps as Old Quarry on the coast just west of Society.

Everything points towards my Brashes being clustered in the far north-east corner of Abercorn parish in the early 1700s, and probably for a time beforehand. Poll Tax shows my 6xgtgdfather George Brash smith & wife in Dudingstone which is right up there.

Rakiura John, I have your Isabel Brash in my tree, yes. George Brash bpt 1658 (s/o Walter Brash in Golhole) marr Margaret Meikle in 1694. Their eldest child George Brash b 1696 marr Agnes Nicol in 1722; it's been claimed that their third child John Brash bpt 1726 married Jean Ritchie (whose husband was a Wright in Newton), but I haven't confirmed this, and there is an anomaly in that this particular George Brash line are generally Smiths, with another contemporary George Brash line being generally Wrights, so John Brash h/o Jean Ritchie could belong in that other line. My line comes down from the second son John Brash bpt 1699 (who was a Smith).

That distinction might sound pedantic, but it does seem to be a real difference. What have you got on John Brash / Isobel Ritchie?

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Offline Forfarian

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 20 July 17 23:54 BST (UK) »
Forfarian, yes ScotlandsPlaces has been checked, including Poll Tax records. Also all the available old maps at the NLS. There is nowhere that looks remotely like Golphole or Had...etc.
I was pretty sure that you would have checked it :(

Er .... have you tried asking Hopetoun Estate? I wouldn't hold your breath if you do, however. I wrote them a letter in 1989 and despite reminding them every 10 years since then of their promise to reply I am still waiting. I understand that their archivist left and I do not know if he has been replaced.
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Offline Fordyce

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #11 on: Friday 21 July 17 09:12 BST (UK) »
I tried to deal with them in 2003, trying to find out more about my Shatton family farm at Totley Wells down the road, and despite receiving an encouraging holding reply, never heard a chirrup since, despite reminders and even a visit - I've found that if you turn up in person and still get nowhere you really are flogging a dead horse. So, this time around, no.

This time around, I think I've got sufficient from old maps and poll tax rolls to conclude my Brashes led back to this north-eastern corner of Abercorn (being the estate of George Dundas of Duddingston [a house a little to the east of Newton, not the parish/village in the middle of Edinburgh *]) rather than to other contemporary Brash clusters in Philpston and Linlithgow further west. There's an argument that these three clusters meet with two brothers: Abercorn's Kirk Elder Walter Brash b c1608 and Kincavil's tenant Patrick Brash b c1599 but surviving evidence is too thin on the ground to be sure. I was rather pleased to get this far back!

* See http://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/west-lothian-os-name-books-1855-1859/west-lothian-volume-04/19 where, by chance, you'll see a reference to Mr Thomas Chattie Totley Wells. He is the son of my 3xgtgdfather Thomas Shatton, the surname having part-evolved on its way to Chatham. My thinking is that Golphole and Hady..etc disappeared under Hopetoun's eventual expansion of their Deer Park.

Regarding the 'y' thorn, I should've added that the 'y' in Hady..etc is clearly and neatly written as a standard 'y' with none of the features of the thorn (as per images on www.scottishhandwriting.com/cmLFth.asp), and in one case is identical to the 'y' in Henry in the same entry - see attachment. So, a worthy suggestion but I don't think it applies in this particular case.

Online Rakiura John

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 22 July 17 03:56 BST (UK) »
Fordyce, thanks for your replies.
The 1749 Abercorn Marriage Record for John Brash & Jean Richie only describes them as “both in this Parish”, but the 1755 Abercorn Bap Record for their daughter Isabel gives the confirmation you seek by describing her parents as “John Brash, Wright in Newtoun, and Jean Richie”. It certainly seems that trades such as Wrights were carried on through the generations (for instance daughter Isabel's spouse James Morrison, and all their three sons Alexander, John & James, were Wrights), so such occupations should certainly carry weight. As your John Brash came from a line of Smiths rather than Wrights, I agree that there is a good chance that my John Brash is not from your particular Brash line. Does the fact he lived at Newton have a bearing?
I have nothing further on John Brash & Jean Richie but I need to pursue Abercorn MIs when I next get off our Island to visit a mainland library. The above mentioned Bap Record for Isabel describes her as “fourth daughter”, so there must be 3 older sisters that I haven't found and these might appear on a family MI.
If you would like copies of above, let me know.

Online Rakiura John

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 22 July 17 08:39 BST (UK) »
Fordyce, another thought. Do you recognize the witnesses on Isabel's Bap Record below as having any connection to your Brash line?

Offline Fordyce

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 22 July 17 11:39 BST (UK) »
Rakiura John, thanks for the info.

1. The witnesses are James Haston and Robert Ramsay. Robert Ramsay witnessed their previous child on 12-9-1752. John Hausten was a wright in Duntarvie when he witnessed their final child on 14-5-1764. Presumably the Haston/Hausten are brothers. I know nothing else about these witnesses.

2. The statement that Isabel was a 4th daughter raises a problem - going by my current notes, she cannot possibly be. Rather than explain here, I've extracted my notes, as updated with your info, and you can see what I mean. You'll also see I have OPR images for two of the other four baptisms - you're welcome to those. Can you send me a PM with your email address, it'll be easier to swop info that way.

3. The 'fit' of the various John Brashes is vexing. So much is circumstantial and it doesn't help that, seemingly, the women married young and the men married much later. Your wright John Brash's first child was born 8-5-1750, my smith John Brash's last child was born 15-7-1751, so they co-existed in Newton. The latter's wife Christian Greenlaw married age 18, her husband being 34 (says me) which of course raises the possibility of him being on his second marriage (although I've decided not). The same possibility arises for your John Brash.

4. Finding the parentage of Jean Ritchie would be a help!

Offline dowdstree

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 23 July 17 11:39 BST (UK) »
Not any help in identifying places but my husband has both the surname of Brash and Shatton in his ancestry from the same area.

1.  Thomas Shatton born around 1739 married to Elizabeth (Betty) Brash
2.  Thomas Shatton born 21/4/1781 baptised at Abercorn died 2/7/1851 at Totley Wells - surname has now become Chattie.
3.  George Chattie born around 1821 died 16/3/1857 at Newton buried at Abercorn.
4.  Alexander Chattie born 16/3/1857 died 17/7/1916 by this time the surname has changed to Chattam.

Then my husband's grandfather and his mother who both used the surname of Chatttam.

Dorrie
Small, Dundee
Dickson, Dundee
Patrick, Scotland
Easson, Scotland
Small, Co. Antrim
Madden, Co. Westmeath
Dickson, Co. Down

Offline Fordyce

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 23 July 17 19:11 BST (UK) »
Hi Dorrie,

It looks as though the first use of Chatham was in 1852 in Edinburgh, my gtgtgdfather by now in Glasgow quickly following suit. Yet the George Chattie & Helen Gowans family tree, your line, went with Chattam initially, only to end up (after some to-ing and fro-ing) as Chatham as far as I can see. My records have George Chattie's death as 11-3-1858 rather than 16-3-1857 when twins Thomas & Alexander were born. Just to confuse things, Alexander's surname on his death on 17-7-1916 is given as Chatty - by his son who signed himself as R Chatty! Can you tell me down which of Alexander's nine children your husband descends?

I really don't know why the surname changed. Any theories?

Chatta, Chattah and Chatto have been used too. How the pronunciation evolved is also uncertain - Shatton/Shotton obviously start with a soft 'sh' as in 'shatter', yet certainly now Chatham and I expect Chattie as well as Chattam have a hard 'ch' as in 'chatter'. Yet, I was surprised to hear just recently a reference in a TV documentary by no less than Prince William to the Queen's niece Lady Sarah Chatto which he pronounced with a soft 'sh' - which threw a different light upon things. There were Chattos around Abercorn and indeed, and maybe because of this, Thomas Shatton is recorded as Thomas Chatto in 1797 Horse Tax records at Duntarvie, Abercorn. Makes one wonder whether Chattie is merely a diminuitive of Shatton, first being pronouced with a soft 'sh' which gradually evolved to a hard 'ch', I can only think the evolution to Chatham was for vanity reasons, maybe something to do with Chatham the dockyard or Sir William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham, with Chattam being simply a misspelt version bearing in mind Chatham is pronounced.

The origins of Shatton itself are mysterious. But there is a village in England, in Derbyshire, of that name, in the parish of Hope. Bearing in mind Thomas Shatton was on the Hopetoun estate, and there were several Thomas Shattons in Shatton, I thought I might have cracked it, except that Hope parish has nothing to do with the Hope family of Hopetoun - or does it?

Offline dowdstree

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Re: BRASH in and near Abercorn
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 25 July 17 12:39 BST (UK) »
Hi Fordyce,

Death of George Chattie was 11/3/1858 - my error gave the twins date of birth instead.

The spelling of the surname seems to vary from census to census and down the generations. Very interesting your information on the Chattos.

To date I have only got 5 children for Alexander as follows -

John born 1879 died 1881
Alexander born 1880 died 1942 (Edinburgh) mu husbands grandfather.
Robert born 1883 died 1944
Thomas born 1887 killed in action 1915 WW1
Margaret born 1891 died 1971

Wonder who I have missed ? Perhaps you could let me know.

Also who was your gtgtgfather ?

Dorrie
Small, Dundee
Dickson, Dundee
Patrick, Scotland
Easson, Scotland
Small, Co. Antrim
Madden, Co. Westmeath
Dickson, Co. Down