Looking for ancestors of Joseph Jones born 1874 Liverpool

[Ladyhawk]

Hello,
For information, there is an old thread regarding the same family names here

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=181976.

Which censuses definitely show your family, Sue?

Regards
Heywood

Thanks Heywood was just posting the info. I had found.........when I saw red writing

For info.

1851 HO107; Piece: 2177; Folio: 478; Page: 17
Thomas MILLER occ Mariner, Jane, HANNAH 11, John 10mths

 1841 HO107; P 562;:  E D: 50; F48; Page: 17
Thomas MILLER occ Mariner, Jean, HANNAH 16mths

Might be Robert

1861 RG 9 P 2395 Folio 25 pg 44
9 Ct 1 House Ben Johnson Street Liverpool
John Jones occ ropemaker
Jane
Robert 35 occ dock labourer
Edward
Jane
Hellen Smith visitor
All born Liverpool

Thomas Jones born 30 Jan 1862
Baptism    9 Mar 1862 Liverpool, St Peter
Robert Jones occ ROPE MAKER
Hannah Jones

Edward Jones born 24 Jan 1864
Baptism 14 Feb 1864 Liverpool, St Peter
Robert Jones occ ROPE MAKER
Hannah Jones

Robert Jones born 15 Jun 1871
Baptism 3 Jul 1871 Liverpool, St Peter
Robert Jones occ ROPE MAKER
Hannah Jones

Joseph Jones born 8 Jul 1874
Baptism    13 Sep 1874Liverpool, St Peter
Robert Jones occ PORTER
Hannah Jones

[sue 123]

Thanks Ladyhawk and Heywood,

I did have that information but my confusion is which Hannah???  as Hannah FINCH and Hannah MILLER both appear to be married to a Robert Jones with a son Joseph.

I am sure that there are 2 Robert Jones 1) a cotton porter and 2) a rope maker and there is not much connection between the 2 occupations.

Thanks also for the ref to the other Chat and I did contact that poster but we are working on 2 different families...... we think!!!

I need to get back to the library after Xmas.

[Ladyhawk]

Here's baptism of Robert's dau Jane from 1881 census

Jane Jones born 4 Oct 1876 bpt 29th Oct.
Father Robert occ Cotton Porter mother Anne
Abode Cazenue  4 court 1 house

Something to look into when you go to the library

6 Mar 1903 Liverpool, All Saints
Jane Jones age 25, 2 ?ace Street father Robert occ Rope maker
John McDonald occ lab.  father James occ joiner
Don't know if this will help Jane McDonald has her brother Joseph & a cousin surname Miller living with her

[Ladyhawk]

Here’s a Robert Jones born c1836 Liverpool single whose occupation is a Cotton Porter
he’s lodging at 11 Kirby Street, Everton, Liverpool with the Hugh Thomas & family
1861  RG 9; Piece: 2710; Folio: 2; Page: 1

[heywood]

I did have that information but my confusion is which Hannah???  as Hannah FINCH and Hannah MILLER both appear to be married to a Robert Jones with a son Joseph.

I need to get back to the library after Xmas.

Sue,

I can't see a Jones/Finch marriage in the indexes. Do you have that marriage?

Heywood

[Annette7]

As you say you don't actually have a copy of the marriage certificate are you absolutely sure that father Robert was porter/docker on the actual certificate or have you just picked this up from looking at the various census?

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if your Joseph was actually a year or so older than he states on 1901/1911 census - that's supposing your Joseph is the Boiler man shown as married to a Sarah??

In 1911 birthplace is Liverpool, in 1901 is Garston and always living in Toxteth Park (and on both census Joseph Jones is the only Boilerman of that age in Liverpool area and married to a Sarah).

In 1891 your Joseph would expect to be found with this profession or as an apprentice and there appears to only be one candidate:

Cleopas Street, Toxteth Park

Robert Jones     48       Boiler Maker         Hawarden, Cheshire
Priscilla Jones    38                                  Seacombe, Cheshire
Joseph Jones 19   Boiler Maker App. Garston, Lancashire
Elizabeth J. Jones  16                                   ditto
Robert W. Jones  13                                 Liverpool
Mary C. Jones  11                                       ditto
Herbert Jones  7                                         ditto
Thomas B. Jones 4                                      ditto
Walter Jones 1                                            ditto

It just seems strange to me that the only Joseph Jones bc.1874 (plus/- 2 years) connected with Boiler Maker are the one married to Sarah in 1901 and 1911 and since this was a skilled profession would have been doing this work in 1891 and again, the only one is the one above on 1891 census who is indeed the son of a Robert but this man is a Boiler Maker himself!!

Hence the question was he definitely a porter/docker or have you just picked these up from looking at the various census and trying to find your Joseph?

This Robert Jones was already a Boiler Maker when he married Priscilla Brellisford 13/7/1873 St. Nicholas, Liverpool so don't know if son Joseph was born pre the marriage as shown bc.1872 or if this is actually a mistake. Who knows?

(As an aside, there is a tree on ancestry claiming that Robert/Priscilla's son Joseph married a lady named Alice Ann Dutton 1894 but this is wrong - you can view the marriage certificate and it clearly states that this Joseph's father was a Robert Jones, who was a Baker and census shows he was actually married to an Ann and did indeed have a son Joseph bc.1872.   So the tree owner has attached their Joseph to the wrong couple!  Beware Ancestry trees!!)

Have just double checked marriages on Ancestry and found this marriage which is the one for a Joseph Jones  22   Boiler Maker and Sarah Stevenson 21   27/10/1895 St. Matthews Church, Liverpool - is this your Joseph??    Because, if so, it definitely shows his father to be Robert Jones, Boiler Maker which does indeed make him the son of Robert and Priscilla.

Fingers crossed this is your man.

Annette

[sue 123]

As you say you don't actually have a copy of the marriage certificate are you absolutely sure that father Robert was porter/docker on the actual certificate or have you just picked this up from looking at the various census?

The reason I ask is that I am wondering if your Joseph was actually a year or so older than he states on 1901/1911 census - that's supposing your Joseph is the Boiler man shown as married to a Sarah??

In 1911 birthplace is Liverpool, in 1901 is Garston and always living in Toxteth Park (and on both census Joseph Jones is the only Boilerman of that age in Liverpool area and married to a Sarah).

In 1891 your Joseph would expect to be found with this profession or as an apprentice and there appears to only be one candidate:

Cleopas Street, Toxteth Park

Robert Jones     48       Boiler Maker         Hawarden, Cheshire
Priscilla Jones    38                                  Seacombe, Cheshire
Joseph Jones 19   Boiler Maker App. Garston, Lancashire
Elizabeth J. Jones  16                                   ditto
Robert W. Jones  13                                 Liverpool
Mary C. Jones  11                                       ditto
Herbert Jones  7                                         ditto
Thomas B. Jones 4                                      ditto
Walter Jones 1                                            ditto

It just seems strange to me that the only Joseph Jones bc.1874 (plus/- 2 years) connected with Boiler Maker are the one married to Sarah in 1901 and 1911 and since this was a skilled profession would have been doing this work in 1891 and again, the only one is the one above on 1891 census who is indeed the son of a Robert but this man is a Boiler Maker himself!!

Hence the question was he definitely a porter/docker or have you just picked these up from looking at the various census and trying to find your Joseph?

This Robert Jones was already a Boiler Maker when he married Priscilla Brellisford 13/7/1873 St. Nicholas, Liverpool so don't know if son Joseph was born pre the marriage as shown bc.1872 or if this is actually a mistake. Who knows?

(As an aside, there is a tree on ancestry claiming that Robert/Priscilla's son Joseph married a lady named Alice Ann Dutton 1894 but this is wrong - you can view the marriage certificate and it clearly states that this Joseph's father was a Robert Jones, who was a Baker and census shows he was actually married to an Ann and did indeed have a son Joseph bc.1872.   So the tree owner has attached their Joseph to the wrong couple!  Beware Ancestry trees!!)

Have just double checked marriages on Ancestry and found this marriage which is the one for a Joseph Jones  22   Boiler Maker and Sarah Stevenson 21   27/10/1895 St. Matthews Church, Liverpool - is this your Joseph??    Because, if so, it definitely shows his father to be Robert Jones, Boiler Maker which does indeed make him the son of Robert and Priscilla.

Fingers crossed this is your man.

Annette

Wow!!!! I reckon you are correct and I've been barking up the wrong tree with the wrong Joseph and Robert ! Its not just the boilerman link which is crucial but also that Walter continued as a  family name according to my mum.
I think I may have just got too excited by looking at other people's trees !! lesson learnt!
I now need to dig a bit further.
Thanks so much for all your help.

[Susantina]

Hi there seen this post and thought you may be able to help . Im doing my tree on ancestry  Thomas howard jones born 4th december1921 silverdale avenue West derby Liverpool is MY dad father Robert joseph jones  mother Florence wilson . Other jones harry howard jones  john j . John g . Margrtet . Mary . Now i have a Robert joseph jones  married to an ann ellen savage  now done my dna test as struggling with the jones name it has come back with no matches but has come back with hannah finch what you are discussing  any help

[Annette7]

Susantina - I usually avoid anything to do with the surname Jones but this one intrigued me.

First, you say your father born 1921 was the son of Robert Joseph Jones and Florence Wilson - however, the only marriage between a couple of these names didn't take place until 1933.   Is this correct?

The Robert Joseph (who had a brother Harry Howard) was the son of the Robert Joseph Jones who married Ann Ellen Savage, as you mention.   This Robert Joseph was born in 1866, son of a John Henry Howard Jones and wife Margaret Ashald who married 1862.

However, this John Henry Howard Jones - a mariner - is shown to be born circa 1833 Denbighshire (son of a Robert).   Found on 1851 census in Toxteth and his parents are a Robert Jones, Cooper and Margaret.   

As you can see, there is nowhere where a Hannah Finch fits into this particular family line which is somewhat bewildering.  Since the parents of your father apparently didn't marry until 12 years after his birth I can't help wondering if the correct Robert Joseph has been identified as being the father of your father Thomas Howard Jones.

Annette