Author Topic: John & Elizabeth MANTEL emigrated to Australia after 1885  (Read 3696 times)

Offline sparrett

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Re: John & Elizabeth MANTEL emigrated to Australia after 1885
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 12 January 17 23:36 GMT (UK) »
Aha!!
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/185523376

March 1889
FOR SALE, First-class Hairdressing BUSINESS (ladies' and Gentlemen's) ; stock,
fixtures, gas-fittings, &c a bargain ; owner leaving for England.
Apply, Mantell and Co., 119 George street.

 ADDING

This advertisement. 5th Jan 1889.
To Hairdressers. Wanted a good steady young man. Apply Mantell, George Street.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/185516717


Sue
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline judb

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Re: John & Elizabeth MANTEL emigrated to Australia after 1885
« Reply #19 on: Friday 13 January 17 03:14 GMT (UK) »
Link to passenger list for the Bulimba, left London, 9 September 1885, arr Brisbane 5 November 1885.
http://www.archivessearch.qld.gov.au/Image/DigitalImageDisplay.aspx?ImageId=37970#page=1&view=Fit&ispdf=true

I am not seeing any MANTEL (or any variation) on this list. 

Judith
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline sparrett

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Re: John & Elizabeth MANTEL emigrated to Australia after 1885
« Reply #20 on: Friday 13 January 17 03:39 GMT (UK) »
The parents of that man are Richard MANTELL and Sarah WOODROFFE

Debra  :)

I do not see the name either Judith
But, clutching at straws here ::) ::)

I do see a James WOODROFFE, aged 60.
ADDING Steerage, page 9

Was he "on the run"  :P

Sue
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Offline johnP-bedford

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Re: John & Elizabeth MANTEL emigrated to Australia after 1885
« Reply #21 on: Friday 13 January 17 09:00 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for that Sue & Judith, its odd that he's not on the passenger list of the Bulimba, or anything like it. There's no-one who's a hairdresser or comes from Beds/Bucks, or anyone aged around 70, in fact the James Woodroffe at age 60 is the oldest but who is he. John Mantel did have a brother James Woodroffe Mantel born 1807 but I've not researched what happened to him.

As to the adverts, strange that Mantell is selling a hairdressers business in George Street, Brisbane in Mar 1889 while he is in the Dunwich Asylum from Nov 1887. He states in his admission record 'I have no property, no cash and I believe my son pays for my maintenance in Dunwich Asylum'. There are 3 notes that says he was absent on leave from 12th to 20th Jan 1888, from 21st to 28th Aug 1888 & from 17th to 24th Dec 1889.

Cheers John

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Partridge - North Beds; Northants & Peterborough
Bishop - Bedford; Hunts, Hemingford Grey
Allen - Hunts, Hemingford Abbotts
Clement - Croydon
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Offline sparrett

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Re: John & Elizabeth MANTEL emigrated to Australia after 1885
« Reply #22 on: Friday 13 January 17 09:19 GMT (UK) »

 He states in his admission record 'I have no property, no cash and I believe my son pays for my maintenance in Dunwich Asylum'. There are 3 notes that says he was absent on leave from 12th to 20th Jan 1888, from 21st to 28th Aug 1888 & from 17th to 24th Dec 1889.

Cheers John



Hi John,
You have the advantage of be able to see the record, so to that extent, the helpers are in the dark a little.

Thanks for that Sue & Judith, its odd that he's not on the passenger list of the Bulimba, or anything like it. There's no-one who's a hairdresser or comes from Beds/Bucks, or anyone aged around 70, in fact the James Woodroffe at age 60 is the oldest but who is he. John Mantel did have a brother James Woodroffe Mantel born 1807 but I've not researched what happened to him.

 Cheers John



I should have made my post clearer. Sorry.
I am speculating he  used the name WOODROFFE as an alias on the shipping list in order to evade detection by .....??
We have no evidence that
Elizabeth came to Australia
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline judb

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Re: John & Elizabeth MANTEL emigrated to Australia after 1885
« Reply #23 on: Saturday 14 January 17 00:32 GMT (UK) »
Would it be possible for you to transcribe the Asylum admission record as it seems to have been lodged by John himself, and there may be other clues.

Sue, that's a brilliant find on the shipping list.  I think James WOODROFFE is very likely to be John MANTELL.
My reasoning:
  • As passports were not used it would be easy to travel using any name at all.
    WOODROFFE's age is given as 60 when John MANTELL was actually 70; shipping records depend on the truthfulness of the passenger, and the accuracy of the bureaucracy of the shipping co.
    No occupation or birthplace information is recorded - so at least there is no contradictory information.
    Obvious connection to a family name.
    WOODROFFE travelled steerage which  meant that he was a paying passenger (i.e. he was not an assisted/bounty immigrant).
    John MANTELL gives very specific information re his arrival in Brisbane in his admission papers.  It seems unlikely that he would know the dates of the passage of the Bulimba two years after the event unless he had travelled on that voyage.

My thoughts are that John left England for whatever reason quickly after his marriage to Elizabeth FROGGATT using an alias. It would be interesting to know why.  ::)  Interesting to know more about Elizabeth also but with no identifying information other than her name.......................  You don't have the marriage cert by any chance?  Too many Elizabeths - Froggatt or Mantell to find her before or after the marriage.

If this supposition is correct then it explains why he did not mention the marriage to Elizabeth.

As for selling his Brisbane hairdressing business while he was in the Asylum, John states that he has no property and that he thinks his son is paying for his maintenance. I would suspect that George or a manager may have been running the business.  The advertisement for the sale is only of the actual business, not a real estate property - although one might argue that fixtures and fittings could be considered property.

Was there an occupation listed for John in the 1885 Newport Pagnell electoral roll? Was there any mention of Elizabeth on that roll?

Judith
DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
"Time present and time past are both perhaps present in time future..." T S Eliot

UK Census information Crown Copyrightt, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline johnP-bedford

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Re: John & Elizabeth MANTEL emigrated to Australia after 1885
« Reply #24 on: Saturday 14 January 17 08:08 GMT (UK) »
Hi Judith,   I've attached the PDF file for the entry I received from Queensland Archives...
As you see it lists his children & approx ages, their years of birth are as follows:- Walter 1841, Sarah 1843, John 1845, Catherine 1847, Elizabeth 1850, George 1853, Gertrude 1857 & Agnes 1859. He also had daughter Laura 1855 but she's not there, haven't found yet when she died? He married Sarah Watford in Bedford in 1838, she died 1880. I haven't yet got the 1885 marriage certificate of him to 2nd wife Elizabeth Froggatt, its on its way. Don't know anything else about her.

Also note his profession = taxidermist. That's as well as being a hairdresser (artist in hair) and a perfumer & a bird-stuffer in Bedford & then Newport Pagnell from 1838 up to 1881. The electoral roll of 1885 does not give an occupation.

From Trove newspapers I have found a number of entries 1885 - 1889 for Mantell + taxidermist, of George Street;  sometimes he is known as Professor Mantell, some mention 'and daughter' some mention an Agnes Mantell. If that's his daughter ? then I'm confused, as I have marriage on 8 Apr 1882 at Newport Pagnell by licence; John Walker of Stantonbury to Agnes, youngest daughter of John Mantel of N P. Has she come to Australia as well?

Thanks for your help & thoughts

Cheers John
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Partridge - North Beds; Northants & Peterborough
Bishop - Bedford; Hunts, Hemingford Grey
Allen - Hunts, Hemingford Abbotts
Clement - Croydon
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Offline sparrett

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Re: John & Elizabeth MANTEL emigrated to Australia after 1885
« Reply #25 on: Saturday 14 January 17 09:33 GMT (UK) »
28th April 1888
At 119 George Street Agnes MANTELL, taxidermist,  was advertising for seal skins. 

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/3473884

Sue
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Offline sparrett

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Re: John & Elizabeth MANTEL emigrated to Australia after 1885
« Reply #26 on: Sunday 15 January 17 00:37 GMT (UK) »
A bit more digging ;D

I think we have two people, father and daughter leaving England under assumed names.

The daughter was perhaps known as Agnes and this is the name listed for her on the 1881 census, where, as you have mentioned, she lived with her father John MANTEL.
She was then 21 and a milliner born in Bedford.

Her name at birth   registration was

MANTEL, Martha  Jane Agnes
Mother  WATFORD 
Year 1859
June  Quarter
BEDFORD    03B /335

And this full name she used at her marriage in 1882 to either John WALKER or William WOODWARD

Marriages Jun 1882   
Newport P.
MANTEL    Martha Jane A       
3a   927
     
PASS Lucy Fanny         
WALKER    John        
WOODWARD William    

Sue    
 
ADDING
On 1891 I think I see William WOODWARD with Lucy F. his wife.

 
Lucy F WOODWARD born  abt 1858 at New Port Pagnell, Buckinghamshire
Head-William.

So it looks like Agnes married John WALKER.



Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk