Author Topic: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?  (Read 28048 times)

Offline kob3203

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How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« on: Monday 09 January 17 04:20 GMT (UK) »
We have an 18 Jan 1862 marriage in St Mary's Cahir between Johanna Sweeney and Edmond Purtill (  http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632136#page/90/mode/1up - second entry on left-hand page)

Their first child Thomas was baptized on 19 July 1862 in Cahir ( half-way down this page http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/124/mode/1up ) so she was almost certainly pregnant at the marriage unless the birth was very premature.

The 1901 census records Johanna's age as 50, indicating a birth year around 1851 ( http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Tipperary/Caher/Market_Street/1708292/ )

Johanna's 1906 death record records her age as 57, indicating a birth year around 1849 ( https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05544/4555211.pdf bottom of the page (thanks sinann) )

By tradition I understand that RC marriages were usually in the bride's parish, and there's a 26 May 1850 Cahir baptism that would seem to fit the 1849/1851 birth year, of a Joanna to Lawrence Sweeney and B.Kerry (last entry for May here http://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000632137#page/54/mode/1up)


My question is this: How likely is it that an RC girl of this time got married (already pregnant) at such a young age, only 11 years 8 months after being baptized ?


(Another thing that's niggling me is that none of Johanna's sons are named Lawrence. I understand that it was traditional for the one of the sons to be named after his maternal grandfather.)

(This topic is a follow-on from "Anyone know of Sweeney or Purtill families (RC) near Cahir 1835-1855 ?" in the Tipperary board)
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline kob3203

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #1 on: Monday 09 January 17 05:09 GMT (UK) »
I just found the old "Legal Age for Marriage in Ireland" topic where myluck! mentioned that "Roman Catholic Canon law stated a girl could marry at 12 and a boy at 14". aghadowey also mentioned that "...A bride of 12 or 13 would have been highly unusual even at that time [1872]." - so I guess it's not totally impossible. But to even be aged just 12 there would have to have been 4 months between Johanna's birth and her baptism. Is that likely?

I also just noticed that Thomas Burke is a sponsor on the 1850 baptism, but also appears to be the parish priest on the 1862 wedding. Not sure if that's relevant.
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline dobfarm

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #2 on: Monday 09 January 17 05:52 GMT (UK) »
Age at baptism ? The girl could be months old or 'X' years old when baptised. The (bride) girls birth certificate should give a more accurate figure of her exact age with the known parents and place of birth-mothers maiden name etc)

Age at death ? (My great  granny lost 3 year in age at death from her birth certificate year and marriage age) can be out +/- a year depending when born in a year, ie:- born Jan 1st or born Dec 31st in the same year or the date in a year when died. The informant may not know the exact age at death and states to the best of his/her knowledge of the deceased's age at death.

Age at marriage ? (many a yarn told there _ my mum thought dad should have retired on state pension 3 years before he actually did reach legal pension age 65 in the UK ;D )

Age on census can be +/- a year or two out

These records you mention  (apart from a birth certificate with known correct facts of parents of the right birth register exact date of the baby child birth ) are not that accurate as counting in months or even 1 to 2 years.

I don't know about Ireland but in England they would have had to have had a special licence to marry with parent father or male guardian bond giving his permission for the minor to marry.

Age of consent to have intercourse and age to marry may have differed 
Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Any transcription of information does not identify or prove anything.
Intended as a Guide only in ancestry research.-It is up to the reader as to any Judgment of assessments of information given! to check from original sources.

In my opinion the marriage residence is not always the place of birth. Never forget Workhouse and overseers accounts records of birth

Online Wexflyer

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #3 on: Monday 09 January 17 07:45 GMT (UK) »
There is no sign of a dispensation or parents consent, so I think this is very, very unlikely.  By contrast, error in the age given at death and on census returns is commonplace. Happened all the time. I have seen discrepancies of 10-20 years in many cases. Never led me to believe that any of the people involved were 10-15 years old when they married...
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens;CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter;COSGRAVE Castlebridge?;CULLEN Lady's Island;CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook, Wic;DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack;FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown;HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wex;McGILL Litter;MORRIS Forth Commons;PIERCE Ladys Island;POTTS Bennettstown;REDMOND Gerry; ROCHEx2 Wex; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit;SHERIDAN Moneydurtlow; SINNOTT Wex;SMYTH Gerry/Oulart;WALSH Kilrane/Wex; WHITE Tagoat area


Offline louisa maud

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #4 on: Monday 09 January 17 08:19 GMT (UK) »
She might have lied about her age  at marriage, I have a great aunt who married at 14 years 5 months and stated she was 21, wouldn't have thought that would have been easy to pass yourself off as 21, as far as we know she wasn't pregnant at the time

You would need to see her birth certificate

Louisa Maud
Census information is Crown Copyright,
from  www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Granath Sweden and London
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Garner, Devon
Garner New Zealand
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Parkinson St Pancras,
Jenkins Marylebone Paddington
Mizon/Mison/Myson Paddington
Tindal Marylebone Paddington
Tocock, (name changed to Ellis) London
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #5 on: Monday 09 January 17 08:54 GMT (UK) »
She might have lied about her age  at marriage, I have a great aunt who married at 14 years 5 months and stated she was 21, wouldn't have thought that would have been easy to pass yourself off as 21, as far as we know she wasn't pregnant at the time

You would need to see her birth certificate

Louisa Maud

Since marriages usually take place in the bride's church it's most likely that the priest who performed the marriage ceremony knew the bride and her family.
Civil registration of births in Ireland didn't start until 1864 so there's no birth certificate to verify the age here.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline kob3203

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #6 on: Monday 09 January 17 09:07 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the thoughts and observations.

Regarding the priest at the wedding knowing the family I think that he's actually the bride's godfather !

The comments about license/dispensation/parental consent are interesting: can the fact that there isn't anything noted in the parish register marriage record be taken as an indication that she was (or was believed by those involved to be) over a certain age? If so, what age?
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)

Offline louisa maud

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #7 on: Monday 09 January 17 09:08 GMT (UK) »
Learn something every day, didn't realise registration didn't start till as late as that

LM
Census information is Crown Copyright,
from  www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Granath Sweden and London
Garner, Marylebone Paddington  Northolt Ilford
Garner, Devon
Garner New Zealand
Maddieson
Parkinson St Pancras,
Jenkins Marylebone Paddington
Mizon/Mison/Myson Paddington
Tindal Marylebone Paddington
Tocock, (name changed to Ellis) London
Southam Marylebone, Paddington
Bragg Lambeth 1800's
Edermaniger(Maniger) Essex Kent Canada (Toronto)
Coveney Kent Lambeth
Sondes kent and London

Offline kob3203

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Re: How likely is an 1862 RC marriage with a pregnant bride aged under 12 ?
« Reply #8 on: Monday 09 January 17 09:43 GMT (UK) »
Does anybody have any examples of RC parish register marriage records with notes indicating consent from the bride's father/godfather/guardian because of her young age ?
Most roots researched back to the early/mid 1800s. Years noted as 'pre' refer to my direct ancestors, although I'm interested in any relatives:
Mitchelstown, Co.Cork: CORBETT (pre1935), SWEENEY  (pre1935), CUSACK? (pre1894), KEYS? (pre1894)
Mallow, Co.Cork: BROWNE (1895-1935)
Caher, Co.Tipp: BROWNE (pre1895), PURTELL(pre1895)
Cashel, Co.Tipp: FANNING (pre1886)
Llanelly, Carms: GRIFFITHS (pre1934), REYNOLDS (pre1901), WILLIAMS (pre1934)
Ton Pentre, Glams: LEWIS (pre1901)