Author Topic: Parents/siblings William Bain b1779 and Isobel Lipp (Lippe) b 1780  (Read 2800 times)

Offline mcadamsd

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Parents/siblings William Bain b1779 and Isobel Lipp (Lippe) b 1780
« on: Wednesday 18 January 17 22:19 GMT (UK) »
Looking for info on 3rd great grandparents William Bain and Isobel Lipp.

I have them married 23 Sep 1797 in Keith Banffshire. 

I am trying to find parents for either.

I find an Isobel Lipp born 03/06/1792 Cairnie but no other in the 1700's in Scotland's People.  Obviously can't be a fit.  No results using Lippe spelling

I do find an Isabel Lipp born 26/09/1773 in Drumblade with only a father ALEXANDER LIPP  listed.  A bit of a distance from the marriage location of Keith

Any suggestions to another source for birth data?

A closer match for William Bain.  I find a birth 21/05/1780 in Fordyce, Banff.  Parents JAMES BAIN and BARBARA REID.  Would Fordyce be a long distance for someone to travel in the 1770s?  Would their marriage document or another document yield parents?

Thanks!

Dunbar, Clark,Bain, Lipp, Campbell, Pope, Barnard, Handcock, McAdams,Creath

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Re: Parents/siblings William Bain b1779 and Isobel Lipp (Lippe) b 1780
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 19 January 17 10:00 GMT (UK) »
I do find an Isabel Lipp born 26/09/1773 in Drumblade with only a father ALEXANDER LIPP  listed.  A bit of a distance from the marriage location of Keith
You could walk from Keith to Drumblade in a day - it's only about 15 miles.

Quote
I find a birth 21/05/1780 in Fordyce, Banff.  Parents JAMES BAIN and BARBARA REID.  Would Fordyce be a long distance for someone to travel in the 1770s?
No. 13 miles.

Quote
Would their marriage document or another document yield parents?
Extremely unlikely that the marriage record would name their parents, and unlikely that they would survive until the start of civil registration in 1855.

Unless they owned land (also very unlikely) you will struggle to prove their parentage. Even if you do find a likely candidate, there is always a possibility that there was another person of the same name whose baptism record has not survived.

I just checked my database. From 1780 to 1800 I have 719 people in my tree born in Scotland. I have failed to find the baptism records of 157 of these - that's about one in five.

For Banffshire only the corresponding figures are 31 and 3 - about one in ten. That's better, but still not enough to be sure that the only candidate is the right candidate.

I wasted a lot of time when I was starting out following the tree of someone born in exactly the right parish in Aberdeenshire in exactly the right year, until I got the death certificate and discovered that my relative was someone entirely different whose baptism is not on record.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

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Re: Parents/siblings William Bain b1779 and Isobel Lipp (Lippe) b 1780
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 19 January 17 10:35 GMT (UK) »
Looking for info on 3rd great grandparents William Bain and Isobel Lipp.
I have them married 23 Sep 1797 in Keith Banffshire. 
A closer match for William Bain.  I find a birth 21/05/1780 in Fordyce, Banff.
This William Bain would have been only 16 years old on 23 September 1797. Legally, he could have married, but it is very unusual for a young man to marry so young at that time. He needed to be able to support a wife and family before getting married, and most 16-year-olds were not in a position to do so.

I see that their recorded children are
Margaret, 1798
Isobel, 1799
John, 1804
Elspet, 1807
Jean, 1809
James, 1811
Alexander, 1813
Janet, 1816.
There's quite a gap between Isobel and John, which could mean that there was another, unrecorded, child.

The Scottish naming tradition goes:
First daughter after mother's mother
First son after father's father
Second daughter after father's mother
Second son after mother's father
Third daughter after mother
Third son after father

If they followed the naming tradition, you would expect William's father to be John and Isobel's father to be James. This breaks down, however, because you'd expect the third son to be William, and he isn't. If, however, there was an unrecorded William between Isobel and John, you'd expect William's father to be William and Isobel's to be John. You would expect Isobel's mother to be Margaret, but you can't tell whether to expect William's mother also to be Margaret or Isobel/Isabella.

What is noticeable is that there is no Barbara among the daughters (unless there was a Barbara between Isobel and John) and it is pretty unlikely that someone whose mother's name was Barbara would not name one of his five daughters after his mother.

So that's two reasons why I think that the son of James Bain and Barbara Reid is unlikely to be the one who married Isobel Lipp.

Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline trish1120

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Re: Parents/siblings William Bain b1779 and Isobel Lipp (Lippe) b 1780
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 19 January 17 12:14 GMT (UK) »
FreeREG has 2 Marriages for female Lipps in Keith 1800+/- 10yrs
1797 William Bain to Isobel Lipp (yours)
26 Sept 1805, MARGARET Lipp to William CRUICKSHANK

It may be worth following them up on Census etec to see where Margaret was born.
She may be a Sister of Isobel

Also the Lipps seem to get around;
Eg;
JAMES Lipp Christened 25 June 1780, Insch, Aberdeen, to William LIPP and Janet BRANNER (F/S.Org)
This may be their Marriage;
22 May 1779, Mortlach Church, Mortlach, Banffshire
Willm LIP to Jannet BREMNER
(FreeREG)

Aah there is this possible on F/S for Isobel;
Isobel LIP 19 June 1779, Botriphnie, Banffshire to John LIP and Elspet STEINSON
(their Marriage is on FreeREG 1778)

I'll leave the possibility of that one up to Forforain as Scotland is not my area of expertise!



Trish :)
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Re: Parents/siblings William Bain b1779 and Isobel Lipp (Lippe) b 1780
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 19 January 17 13:38 GMT (UK) »
Hmmm. John Lip and Elspet Steinson did have a daughter Margaret, born in Keith in 1781, so just about the right age to marry in 1805.

According to LIBINDX Margaret Lipp, wife of William Cruickshank, died in Rothiemay in 1862 and is buried in Keith. So it isn't going to be difficult to confirm her parentage.

Whether that is also enough to prove that her sister is the Isobel Lipp who married William Bain I am not sure. Maybe one of Isobel's children registered Margaret's death?

Wait a minute .... in 1851 Margaret Cruickshank is in the household of her great-nieces Isobella Henry, widow, born Mortlach, and Jessie Anderson, and in 1861 she is listed as Margaret Lipp in the household of Alexander Milne and his wife Isabella, born Mortlach, who is exactly 10 years older than Isobella Henry was in 1851. You can view the full details of these censuses at http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

The IGI confirms that the children listed in the 1861 are those of Alexander Milne and Isabella Anderson, whose marriage on 20 November 1851 was recorded in both Grange and Rothiemay.

Now, there's a birth of Isabella, born 25 November 1825 in Mortlach, daughter of Charles Anderson and Isabel Bain. I looked on SP and was unable to resist the temptation to check the death of Isabel Bain, aged 62, in Mortlach in 1862. She was indeed the daughter of William Bain and Isobel Lipp, and wife of Charles Anderson.

I reckon that is enough to show that Isabella Lipp, wife of William Bain, was indeed the daughter of John Lipp and Elspet Steinson.

1. Lipp John
    sp: Steinson Elspet (m.22 Dec 1778)
    2. Lipp Isabella (b.1779-,Botriphnie,Banffshire,Scotland)
        sp: Bain William (m.23 Sep 1797)
        3. Bain Margaret (b.13 Jan 1798-,Keith,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain Isabella (b.16 Dec 1799-,Keith,Banffshire,Scotland)
        sp: Anderson Charles (m.26 Apr 1821)
            4. Anderson Isabella (b.25 Nov 1825-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
                sp: Henry William (m.18 Mar 1847)
                sp: Milne Alexander (m.20 Nov 1851)
                     5. Milne George Duncan (b.8 Sep 1852-,Rothiemay,Banffshire,Scotland)
                     5. Milne Alexander (b.19 Mar 1854-,Rothiemay,Banffshire,Scotland)
                     5. Milne Margaret (b.15 Jun 1857-,Rothiemay,Banffshire,Scotland)
                     5. Milne Isabella (b.12 Feb 1869-,Rothiemay,Banffshire,Scotland)
             4. Anderson Elizabeth (b.27 May 1831-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
             4. Anderson James (b.1835/1836-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
             4. Anderson Jessie (b.1840/1841-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain John (b.15 Oct 1804-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain Elspet (b.27 Feb 1807-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain Jean (b.22 Jan 1809-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain James (b.1 Apr 1811-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
        3. Bain Alexander (b.3 Jan 1813-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
       3. Bain Janet (b.9 Feb 1816-,Mortlach,Banffshire,Scotland)
    2. Lipp Margaret (b.23 Dec 1781-,Botriphnie,Banffshire,Scotland; d.1862-,Rothiemay,Banffshire,Scotland)
       sp: Cruickshank William (m.26 May 1805)

But never trust anything you see online, unless it's an original certificate. Not even what I am saying - you need to make sure that you have the sources and proof. You still need to follow up by checking the originals of the census, Margaret Lipp or Cruickshank's death certificate (1862), and the death certificate of Isabella Anderson or Henry or Milne.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline Robert

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Re: Parents/siblings William Bain b1779 and Isobel Lipp (Lippe) b 1780
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 19 January 17 13:47 GMT (UK) »
Freereg shows that the parents of the Isobel Lip born 1779 in the parish of Botriphnie were living at a place called Mill of Towie. Keith is only about 3 miles from Mill of Towie, Botriphnie.

The parents of Isobel, John Lip and Elspet Steinson married in 1778 in Botriphnie where it states that John was from the parish of Botriphnie and that Elspet was from the parish of Keith.

Rob


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Re: Parents/siblings William Bain b1779 and Isobel Lipp (Lippe) b 1780
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 19 January 17 14:27 GMT (UK) »
Freereg shows that the parents of the Isobel Lip born 1779 in the parish of Botriphnie were living at a place called Mill of Towie. Keith is only about 3 miles from Mill of Towie, Botriphnie.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ4047
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.

Offline trish1120

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Re: Parents/siblings William Bain b1779 and Isobel Lipp (Lippe) b 1780
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 21 January 17 07:38 GMT (UK) »
There you go mcadamsd, as I said an experienced researcher was able to help you :)
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Offline middlesbrough

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Re: Parents/siblings William Bain b1779 and Isobel Lipp (Lippe) b 1780
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 21 January 17 09:02 GMT (UK) »
Possible baptism

Isobel Lip
19.6.1779
Botriphnie, Banff
Par John Lip, Elspet Steinson