John Lane, did he marry three times?

[gazania]

I would like opinions,please, on my gggrandfather, John Lane.  Did he marry three times?  I have searched censuses and bought certificates and completed a Timeline.  I am about 85% sure that I have the same man but lack that defining proof.  What is consistent on the records is his occupation as either a scripture reader or nurseryman/gardener.  His age does not vary a great deal.  His address at times is near his eldest son, William , in Everton.  His father's name on his ?last marriage is William, which fits the Irish naming pattern.  This is a brief Timeline:

First Marriage to Catherine Maloney about 1825 in Cork Ireland.  (My branch, well documented)
6 children, 5 survived with 4 bapt RC Glanmire, Co Cork 1830-38. 1 bapt RC Tipperary 1842. No record of death of Catherine nee Maloney.  Scripture reader or nurseryman/gardener given as John's occupation on children's marriage certificates.

1849 Son & my ancestor, James bpt 1831 Glanmire Cork,left Askeaton, LIM for nurseryman apprenticeship in Clifton, Bristol.  Two sisters followed to Clifton and married there.

1850 John, scripture reader of Askeaton, LIM marries Honora Madigan nee Sheehan CofI in Nantinan, LIM.  Possible children: 2 Children, 1 survives, both bapt CofE 1853, 1856, Everton, Liverpool.  Father, scripture reader.  ?Second marriage?

1856 William, eldest son of first marriage, marries Everton, Liverpool. Also a scripture reader like father, John.  Stays in Everton, Liverpool

1869, ? second wife, Hannah/Honora, dies, John, scripture reader, Everton

1870, John marries ? third time, gardener, widower, Ellen Madigan (relation of previous wife not found but b LIM)  subsequent censuses shows him about 25 years older then Ellen. Marries Everton. Liverpool

Has 6 children with Ellen only 1 survives.  Occupation sometimes given as scripture reader at bapt. Everton.

Dec qtr 1891 John aged 87 dies, West Derby district.

Can I claim this John Lane as my ancestor who marries twice more and moves to Liverpool about 1853?  Thank you for reading. Gazania

 

[lizdb]

Does the fathers name and occupation on the 1850 and 1870 marriages agree?  Was he a widower on both?
Is there anything linking any of his "families" together eg do any siblings from one marriage witness a marriage for a step sibling, or appear living with them on a census, or mention one another in a Will - or even just give the same home address when they marry?

Was there another John Lane born about the same time in the same area, maybe a cousin? If not, then it looks as if all these must relate to the same man.

[gazania]

Thank you for reading my long winded post. To answer your helpful questions:

1   1850 marriage ( transcription only) occupation is scripture reader, father's name is William. Status not given.

2 1870 marriage certificate, widower, occupation is gardener, father's name is William, farmer, deceased.

3  So far, I have found no links as you describe between the siblings of all marriages.  Still looking.  Only links between the siblings of the first marriage.  William the eldest from the first marriage and also a scripture reader lived in Everton as does ?John and the children ( until early adult hood) of the 2nd and 3rd marriage, but not even in the same street. Wills do not link.

4 I have tried to eliminate John by searching for other Johns, so far no luck.  Have found some other Lanes who were also scripture readers and b Ireland but they had different fathers. Still no cousin links.  The family story in my branch is that the family were originally RC but converted so that part is supported.  Sadly any letters/papers in my family were destroyed by order of a coroner in the 1920s on the death of my great Aunt.  Similarly, all papers were ordered to be destroyed in the family of my great uncle in New Zealand after the deaths of two family members in the 'flu epidemic of 1918.

Thank you so much for helping me to clear my mind. Gazania

PS re occupation of nurseryman. 3 generations of nurserymen in my branch: my grand father, my g grand father, and John, my gg grand father.

[gazania]

Forgot to add:

John's death certificate: 22 Oct 1891 death, at 30 Beaumaris St., Seaforth, aged 87, gardener journey man, informant, Ellen. widow of deceased, present at death.

[lizdb]

Can you list the children (from each marriage) with their names and birth years and birth places?

Not sure how it will help, but at least then I can whizz through the censuses just in case anything leaps out - though I am sure you would have spotted anything useful yourself.

[gazania]

Thank you so much for your interest. I shall list the children of the marriages later in the day in my next post.  The sources I used for the children included Lancashire Parish Clerk records.  I searched the GRO for MMN of She(a)han and Madigan to tie in with the censuses.

My g grandfather, James, migrated with his family to OZ in 1884. Despite searching for over 30 years, we knew very little about the family left behind in the UK let alone Ireland until a few months ago. I found James's obit, 1908, indicating he was born in Glanmire, Co Cork.  So exciting since to find his full brothers and sisters and their families.  But more surprised to find the mystery of John and possible 2 more marriages.  Thank you.

[gazania]

Here are the children:

Ist marriage to Catherine Maloney:

William b 1828? Co Cork                     moved to Everton. Scripture reader/grocer. D 1891
Honor(i)a bpt 1830 Glanmire Co Cork  moved to Clifton, Bristol. D ?1909
James bpt 1833      Glanmire Co Cork  moved to Clifton, Bristol; Hastings SSX;1884 to OZ (my line)
Ellen    bpt 1836     Glanmire Co Cork  moved to Clifton, D 1920
Catherine bpt 1838 Glanmire Co Cork  nothing further found
Thomas bpt  1842   Galbally & Aherlow Co Tipp  moved to Tonbridge, KEN, school master

2nd Marriage to Ha(o)nora/ Hannah Sheahan/ Madigan, died 1869 aged 51, cancer of Uterus

Francis (Frank) b 1853 St Stephen's/St Thomas's Liverpool;  shipping clerk, Liverpool
George b 1856 St Peter's Liverpool, address Everton.  ?died Liverpool 1860

3rd Marriage to Ellen Madigan at Walton on Hill. She died 1898, West Derby aged 52

Louisa b 1870 d 1871  Everton
Daniel b 1872 West Derby d 1963 Crosby at 91. Lab.  Had 18 children, 2 sets of twins. ?7 survived
Mary Ellen b 1874 d 1878 West Derby
Jane          b 1875 d 1878 West Derby
Abraham John b 1877 d 1881 West Derby
Elizabeth         b 1878 d 1879 West Derby

Thank you so much for your interest. Gazania

[lizdb]

My first thought on seeing this list is -

Where are the family in 1851?  John has married 2nd wife, but youngest child from 1st marriage, Thomas, is only 9 so one would expect him still to be at home.  If there is a census with John and Honoria as newly weds but with 9 yr old Thomas with them, then that would prove that the first two marriages are the same person.

Sorry, I know nothing about Irish records and censuses if they are still in Ireland in 1851!

[Gibel]

I would suggest you get John's death certificate and then when you have his date of death search for his burial and see if he has a gravestone and find out what is written on it and who else is in the grave. Possibly Lao find the burial place of the second wife and who else is in that grave.

Also with a date of death the newspapers could be checked for an obituary.