Author Topic: Need help finding Charles Joseph Sargent possibly born in Ireland  (Read 2115 times)

Offline Alexandra195

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Need help finding Charles Joseph Sargent possibly born in Ireland
« on: Friday 27 January 17 20:08 GMT (UK) »
Hello all, I have been searching for over year and I cannot found an exact date or place of birth for my great grandfather Charles Joseph Sargent who has Irish roots. I was hoping for some help.

His death certificate puts his birth in 1887 but that’s all I have. He died in 1950’s Birmingham, UK and was married to Elizabeth Sarah Gardner, I know this to be 100% correct – In their ordered marriage certificate Charles’ father is listed as ‘William Augustus Sargent’ (A unique name) with the fathers occupation: ‘Assistant director of the Royal College Of Surgeons in Ireland’

This comes as no surprise as we knew this line had Irish roots and William is 100% my 2x great grandfather. The only records of William Augustus Sargent I have found to exist are army pension records which state he was born in Dublin in 1828 and intended to live in Stepney, London after his Army discharge.

That said, I still can’t find his son, Charles’ birth anywhere or a single census with him in– In Irish records or English. But I know these 3 facts:

1)   In his marriage certificate to Elizabeth in Prestwich Manchester, Charles' residence is listed as Cheetham, Manchester.
2)   In his death certificate his name is Charles Joseph Sargent ALSO KNOWN AS William Joseph Sargent (still can’t find birth records in this name though)
3)   He does not appear in the 1939 register with the rest of the household, even though I know he was still alive.

So could people advise me on how to find his DOB/Place of birth or possibly assist in a search.. I would be so grateful as I’ve been searching for so long on these two people, thank you.

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Offline CaroleW

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Re: Need help finding Charles Joseph Sargent possibly born in Ireland
« Reply #1 on: Friday 27 January 17 20:29 GMT (UK) »
What is Charles occupation on the 1924 marriage cert?

Does his age on the marriage cert correspond to around 1887?
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: Need help finding Charles Joseph Sargent possibly born in Ireland
« Reply #2 on: Friday 27 January 17 20:47 GMT (UK) »
Have you found Charles himself in any census records? If so, what's listed for his place of birth?

The first complete census for Ireland in 1901. It and 1911 are online free -
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

Any idea what religion Charles would have been?
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Offline scotmum

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Re: Need help finding Charles Joseph Sargent possibly born in Ireland
« Reply #3 on: Friday 27 January 17 21:22 GMT (UK) »
Have you contacted the RCSI in Dublin to ask if their archives list a William Augustus Sargent as an assistant director in the late 1800s or early 1900s?
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Offline Alexandra195

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Re: Need help finding Charles Joseph Sargent possibly born in Ireland
« Reply #4 on: Friday 27 January 17 21:22 GMT (UK) »
What is Charles occupation on the 1924 marriage cert?

Does his age on the marriage cert correspond to around 1887?

Hi there, thanks for replying, I don't have the certificate with me now so I don't recall the occupation. But me and my sister did the math and it gave us 1887 also.

Have you found Charles himself in any census records? If so, what's listed for his place of birth?

The first complete census for Ireland in 1901. It and 1911 are online free -
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/search/

Any idea what religion Charles would have been?

Thanks for replying, I can't find him on any census at all. It seems he moved from Manchester to Birmingham after his Marriage in 1824, from then onwards I know his whereabouts. I've looked at electoral rolls and census records in 1901 and 1911 in Manchester before this and can't find a trace! :( I'm guessing he moved around a lot.

Also that line of my family are catholic.

Offline scotmum

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Re: Need help finding Charles Joseph Sargent possibly born in Ireland
« Reply #5 on: Friday 27 January 17 21:29 GMT (UK) »
An 1857 newspaper mentions a William A Sargent as having gained a First Place entrance at Trinity College, Dublin, having formerly been a pupil at Tipperary Grammar. Later newspaper articles would suggest this chap, however, was likely to have been a William Albert Sargent.
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Offline aghadowey

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Re: Need help finding Charles Joseph Sargent possibly born in Ireland
« Reply #6 on: Friday 27 January 17 21:45 GMT (UK) »
There's a C.S. (male) age 14, Roman Catholic, born Dublin City, in 1901 census. Quite possibly not him but would be worth making a note of him for now (people in institutions are listed under initials).
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Castleknock/Cabragh/1268764
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/DublinNorth/
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Offline scotmum

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Re: Need help finding Charles Joseph Sargent possibly born in Ireland
« Reply #7 on: Friday 27 January 17 21:58 GMT (UK) »
Alexandra195, 
Quote
William is 100% my 2x great grandfather
unfortunately, whilst you know it to be 100% certain that the father was listed as William Augustus Sargent and that the occupation was listed as Assistant Director, Royal College Surgeons Ireland, until you have proof that corroborates this, you cannot be 100% certain that these were true facts.

It is highly probable that no one would have checked the information given by Charles for his marriage, and so it is not impossible that he was either (a) not totally truthful or (b) gave information he believed to be true, but which may not have actually been so.

You refer to Army records for a William Augustus Sargent. Do you have anything else to connect that William with your Charles? He would have been c 59 yrs old at time of your chaps birth. Not impossible, but quite old.
"Trees without roots fall over!"
 
""People who never look backward to their ancestors will never look forward to posterity." - Edmund Burke

Don't just wait for the storm to pass, learn to dance in the rain.

“Remember to look up at the stars and not down at your feet. Be curious and however difficult life may seem, there is always something you can do and succeed at.”  Stephen Hawking

Offline Alexandra195

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Re: Need help finding Charles Joseph Sargent possibly born in Ireland
« Reply #8 on: Friday 27 January 17 22:49 GMT (UK) »
There's a C.S. (male) age 14, Roman Catholic, born Dublin City, in 1901 census. Quite possibly not him but would be worth making a note of him for now (people in institutions are listed under initials).
www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Castleknock/Cabragh/1268764
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/DublinNorth/

Thank you, this may be useful!

Alexandra195, 
Quote
William is 100% my 2x great grandfather
unfortunately, whilst you know it to be 100% certain that the father was listed as William Augustus Sargent and that the occupation was listed as Assistant Director, Royal College Surgeons Ireland, until you have proof that corroborates this, you cannot be 100% certain that these were true facts.

It is highly probable that no one would have checked the information given by Charles for his marriage, and so it is not impossible that he was either (a) not totally truthful or (b) gave information he believed to be true, but which may not have actually been so.

You refer to Army records for a William Augustus Sargent. Do you have anything else to connect that William with your Charles? He would have been c 59 yrs old at time of your chaps birth. Not impossible, but quite old.

It’s true that the age gap has left me puzzled although the evidence seems to match too well. My Grandad was also called William Augustus Sargent (1927-2012) and was born in Manchester before moving to Birmingham almost instantly and he always insisted he was Irish. So Charles named his only son exactly after his father according to the marriage certificate. Doing record searches of William's seems to bring virtually nothing back apart from these 2 people

The only other evidence that links the army records is he was in the ‘Royal Army Medical Corps’ for 9 years. And both the marriage and the army records mention Dublin. I guess this really is a tough one to crack so I’m going by strong coincidence  ::)

You're right though, I guess my main hope is contacting RCSI archives about this. Thanks for your help!