Author Topic: Origins of Thomas Richmond died Newbury 1862  (Read 784 times)

Offline stevemiller

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Origins of Thomas Richmond died Newbury 1862
« on: Sunday 29 January 17 11:15 GMT (UK) »

Do you like a mystery?

There are 46 events for the surname RICHMOND in Newbury district during the 100 years 1837 to 1937. All (except three deaths) involve direct descendants of my 3xgreat grandfather, Thomas Richmond. Iím trying to get round the brickwall of his origins.

He died at Newbury in October 1862. Depending on which source you look at (and, of course they all differ), he was born around 1797-1806 in Berkshire, Lambourn or Newbury. His burial suggests 1789, which I think must be an error.

There is an online tree giving his birth as 21 Oct 1801 at Shaw-cum-Donnington. This is unsourced.

Thomas was married to Lucy Hind (or Hinde or Hine) who was born c 1807 at Ashe near Overton, Hants.

I would really like some fresh eyes to have a look at this, as mine probably cannot see the obvious after 30 years of searching! 

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Offline KGarrad

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Re: Origins of Thomas Richmond died Newbury 1862
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 29 January 17 12:25 GMT (UK) »
The new GRO Index search gives his age at death as 65?

RICHMOND, THOMAS        65      
GRO Reference: 1862  D Quarter in NEWBURY  Volume 02C  Page 135

Which puts his birth as 1797.

That's in line with the 1861 census, in which he is 63.
The 1851 census has him age 50.

On the 1851 census he is described as unmarried?
On 1861 he is described as married.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

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Offline stevemiller

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Re: Origins of Thomas Richmond died Newbury 1862
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 29 January 17 13:00 GMT (UK) »
His death certificate states "unknown supposed about 65 years"  and the Reading Mercury report (4 Oct 1862) of the inquest gives his age as 67.

Although 1851 census shows him as unmarried, strictly speaking he was.

Thomas and Lucy were together in 1841 at Castle House, Donnington.

However, at some point before 1851 they appear to have separated. In 1851 and 1861 Lucy does say she is married. On both occasions she was living with a lodger, George Lawrence. The two of them married on 25 Dec 1862.

Offline ribbo39

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Re: Origins of Thomas Richmond died Newbury 1862
« Reply #3 on: Monday 30 January 17 05:33 GMT (UK) »
Steve,

Before you go too far, I have found a Lucy Hine bapt. 14-8-1814 (d/o David & Elizbth [sic]) in Kingsclere.

Looking further I have also found a Lucy Hind bapt. 19-7-1807 (d/o Wm. & Mary) of Ashe
and what looks convincingly, 
she may be in the following marriage;
24-10-1824 Thomas Pope - m - Lucy Hind parish of Ashe.

What  evidence do you have that Lucy married Thomas Richmond?

Alan
Browse, Peggs, Revans/Revance/Ribbans, Spall,   in Suffolk/Norfolk
Belcher, Elderfield, Froude, Saunders,  Stimson, Tame,   in Berks
Artis, Gray in Norfolk

Offline stevemiller

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Re: Origins of Thomas Richmond died Newbury 1862
« Reply #4 on: Monday 30 January 17 09:40 GMT (UK) »
Hello Alan,

Thomas and Lucy's last three children birth registrations (actual certificates and new GRO indexing):
4 Aug (Q3) 1837  Maria - mother's maiden name - HIND (although I once thought it was Brind)
8 Nov (Q4) 1839   Mary Ann - mmn HYDE
3 Dec (q4) 1841   Emily - mmn HINE

When Lucy married George Lawrence she gave her father as William HINDE, labourer (certificate and parish register).

Although very varied, Lucy's ages in censuses point to the 1807 baptism rather than 1814.

Hants Genealogical Society (via FindMyPast) have the 1807 baptism you mentioned. They also have
at Overton 30 June 1807 Lucy HINE d/o William and Mary, of Ashe.

I'm glad you also found the POPE/HINE marriage. I do feel this is very significant.
I've been meaning to get to Hants RO for years, but I think I'll see if I can pay for them to send me a copy of the entry.

I don't think there was time for Mr Pope to die and for Mr Richmond to come acourting ! The first two Richmond children came along fairly quickly.

Charles Richmond s/o Thomas and Lucy was buried at St Nicholas, Newbury on 8 August 1825 aged 1 month. But I don't have his baptism.

The first surviving child was Betsey RICKMAN d/o Thomas & Lucy baptised at Newtown, Hants on 26 Oct 1826 (HGS via FindMyPast). 1841 census at Donnington confirms she was not born in Berkshire.

Steve


 

Offline candrjm

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Re: Origins of Thomas Richmond died Newbury 1862
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 31 January 17 16:33 GMT (UK) »
Hi Steve,

What parish records have you checked out for a baptism and marriage of Thomas Richmond born c1797?

Offline stevemiller

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Re: Origins of Thomas Richmond died Newbury 1862
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 31 January 17 19:25 GMT (UK) »
Hello candrjm,
Many moons ago I looked for Richmonds in transcripts at the Society of Genealogists for Shaw, Speen, Greenham, Enborne, and Lambourn.
Any spare time I had, while working full time, went on other families rather than the Richmonds.
Now I have retired to deepest Somerset I am further away from the resources I need, so I have to rely on the usual online suspects.
I'm not sure if I saw a Newbury transcript. I know certainly in the 2000+ marriages 1737-1799 at St Nicholas there's not a sniff of a Richmond. There's nothing in Toomer's census and nothing in the Berks Overseers' Papers.
The family is so sparse that I might easily have missed them.
 

Offline candrjm

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Re: Origins of Thomas Richmond died Newbury 1862
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 01 February 17 15:51 GMT (UK) »
Hi Steve,

Baptism: 
St Nicolas Church Newbury
21st Oct 1802
Thomas Richmond
Son of William & Sarah Richmond

(This was the only baptism for children with the  surname Richmond between 1799 and 1812)

Baptism for baby Charles:

St Nicolas Church Newbury
6th July 1825
Charles Richmond
Son of Thomas & Lucy Richmond of Newbury
Father's Occ: Labourer

This seems to be the only baptism for children of Thomas & Lucy Richmond in these church records. As the family were living in Shaw-cum-Donnington in 1841 the other children may well have been baptised there. (Sorry but I don't have access to the parish records for Shaw-cum-Donnington)

I did check for a mariage in the St Nicolas records for Thomas & Lucy Richmond between 1819 and 1825 but did not find one.


Chris





Offline stevemiller

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Re: Origins of Thomas Richmond died Newbury 1862
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 01 February 17 16:53 GMT (UK) »
Hello Chris,

That is fantastic and totally unexpected.
May I ask where you sourced this information from?

Apart from Charles and Betsey, 5 of the other 8 children were baptised at Shaw - I assume they didn't bother with the others.

I think I now have confirmation of a theory - I'll check my notes and post later today.

Again, many thanks Chris

Steve