Author Topic: Abram Andrew liddle 1897-1961  (Read 2781 times)

Offline bigmagicdog

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Re: Abram Andrew liddle 1897-1961
« Reply #9 on: Friday 10 February 17 17:56 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Hpool. Already had that marriage but not the church.
Following on CaroleW I pulled the marriage certificate for Frederick Liddle and Mary Atknson and noticed that his father is given as Johnson Snarey Liddle just to confuse me even further.
I seem to have misplaced my 1861 census record so will have to search this weekend for the entry of John & Ann/a.
Will now let my headache subside and continue looking later!.
ANDREWS from Pitney, Martock, and surrounding area of Somerset.
ANDREWS from Hartlepool, Co Durham and surrounding districts.
Family Tree is on web site:  http://daveandrews.tribalpages.com/

Offline CaroleW

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Re: Abram Andrew liddle 1897-1961
« Reply #10 on: Friday 10 February 17 18:21 GMT (UK) »
He was born as Liddle and his mother was single and surname Liddle.  Therefore any subsequent marriage of his mother shortly after an 1858 birth is going to be as Liddle - not Hill.
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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Offline bigmagicdog

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Re: Abram Andrew liddle 1897-1961
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 14 February 17 19:42 GMT (UK) »
The bmd index shows in 1860

Marriages Dec 1860   

Beauglass  Barbara    Hartlepool  10a 167   
Fitton  Jane     Stockton  10a 167   
Hill  Anna     Hartlepool  10a 167   
Liddle  John     Hartlepool  10a 167   
Smith  John     Hartlepool  10a 167 

Time again to look for the birth certificate of Abram as it appears to be misfiled on my system

ANDREWS from Pitney, Martock, and surrounding area of Somerset.
ANDREWS from Hartlepool, Co Durham and surrounding districts.
Family Tree is on web site:  http://daveandrews.tribalpages.com/

Offline Annette7

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Re: Abram Andrew liddle 1897-1961
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 15 February 17 03:14 GMT (UK) »
I agree with CaroleW - John Liddle and Ann Hill are not Frederick's parents.

Bear in mind, the key word is his birthplace of Pickering!

Frederick was born in Pickering 1858 (surname as Liddell) and he was baptised as illeg. son of Ann Liddell at Pickering.   Ann Liddell married a John Snary March quarter 1860 Pickering.   On the 1861 and 1871 census Frederick is listed with the rest of the family as 'Snarey' - no idea if John Snary/Snarey was indeed his father but since he was given the second Christian name of 'Britton' suspect that was the surname of his real father.

He would have married as Liddle as that was his legal surname (and not Snarey).

Like yourself, I cannot see how Isabella Andrews was Abram's grandmother.

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk


Offline bigmagicdog

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Re: Abram Andrew liddle 1897-1961
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 15 February 17 16:14 GMT (UK) »
Thanks Annette. This is a puzzler. As mentioned earlier Fred's father listed himself as Johnson Snarey Liddle on Fred's marriage certificate.
The previous observation that Abram was the result of an affair with Mary Atkinson seems possible as he is listed on 1901 and 1911 census as grandson and looking at various trees on Ancestry Abram does not appear to be listed amongst the children. The son Richard was born 1889 and then a gap until 1898 when Frederick was born. With Abram being born 1897 could Fred and Mary have parted or he was working somewhere or even prison and Mary had an affair. Cannot find Abrams birth certificate so have ordered one to see how that shapes up with parent details. Overall I cannot find a link for the Liddles to belong to the Andrews family or the related Robinsons and Dawkins so I shall wait for the certificate and take it from there.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread and once received I shall update.
ANDREWS from Pitney, Martock, and surrounding area of Somerset.
ANDREWS from Hartlepool, Co Durham and surrounding districts.
Family Tree is on web site:  http://daveandrews.tribalpages.com/

Offline Annette7

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Re: Abram Andrew liddle 1897-1961
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 15 February 17 21:42 GMT (UK) »
There certainly seems to be something strange re. the birth registration of Abram A Liddle.   It seems to have been handwritten in at a later date on the main GRO index page in June quarter 1897 with a reference of S/33??

It doesn't come up on a check of the GRO site to confirm his mothers maiden name.

Plus, I note on your online tree you have a birthdate of 16th December 1897 for Abram but his addition to the GRO register is in the June quarter?   This birthdate appears to be for a son Frederick born to Frederick Britton Liddle and Mary Atkinson (birth reg'd Mar.qtr.1898).

Right now, I'm doubting that Abram is in fact their son, certainly not Mary Atkinson's anyway as she was already pregnant with son Frederick when Abram was born??

With a handwritten addition to the GRO index page June 1897 for Abram A Liddle it looks like his birth was not registered at the relevant time and why the S/33 reference number is given.

I'm wondering whether the mother of Abram was Isabella's daughter Mary Ellen Andrews who married the same time that Abram was born i.e. June quarter 1897 Hartlepool to a Christopher Foster.  Certainly, to be a grandson of Isabella, Abram would have to be a child of one of Isabella's sons by a lady surnamed Liddle or by daughter Mary Ellen with his father being a Liddle (although parents not married).   What doesn't help is that his birth wasn't registered at the appropriate time and became a later addition to the registers.

Please post again when you receive the certificate and put me out of my misery as to who he belonged to.

Annette

Added: By the way, Fred's father didn't 'list himself' as Johnson Snarey Liddle, this is information that Fred would have given himself.




Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline bigmagicdog

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Re: Abram Andrew liddle 1897-1961
« Reply #15 on: Monday 05 June 17 16:27 BST (UK) »
Well here I am again back on Abram Andrews Liddle. Wrongly thought I had a birth certificate but I did not. Had names mixes up. Anyway I ordered one and GRO found no trace. When I gave them page number and the late reference of S/33 they told me that the birth was registered in September quarter 1933 and the handwritten entry was a cross reference in the correct year of birth.
Looking at the census again the name is clearly written Abram Andrews (and not Andrew) Liddle.
This birth certificate shows:
Date of Birth:  31st May 1897 at 14 South Redwood Street.
Name: Abram Andrews, Boy
Fathers name is blank!!   (just to confuse)
Maiden Name  of Mother: Isabella Liddle
Signature of person reporting: Isabella Battison, present at the birth, 16 Throston Street, West Hartlepool
When Registered: 10th August 1933 on the authority of the Registrar General

Looked on Free BMD for battison marriage to no avail
ANDREWS from Pitney, Martock, and surrounding area of Somerset.
ANDREWS from Hartlepool, Co Durham and surrounding districts.
Family Tree is on web site:  http://daveandrews.tribalpages.com/

Offline CaroleW

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Re: Abram Andrew liddle 1897-1961
« Reply #16 on: Monday 05 June 17 16:50 BST (UK) »
Quote
Looked on Free BMD for battison marriage to no avail

The only entry for an Isabella Battison is a death in Crawley Sussex March 1990 which shows a birthdate of 28.10.1902

2 Battison marriages in Durham - 1918 and 1941 - have you checked them both out given the birth was not reported until 1933

Is Isabella Battison shown as "mother"?
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)

Offline Annette7

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Re: Abram Andrew liddle 1897-1961
« Reply #17 on: Monday 05 June 17 20:40 BST (UK) »
So, it looks pretty likely that Abram Andrews Liddle was the illegitimate son of Abram Andrews (Isabella's son) by a lady named Isabella Liddle.

That said, who was Isabella Liddle?   

Annette
Scopes (One-Name Study - Worldwide)
Suffolk - Grist, Knights, Bullenthorpe, Watcham
Scotland - Spence, Horne, Cowan, Moffat
London -  Monk

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead.   Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow.   Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk