Author Topic: Signature comparison  (Read 1608 times)

Offline Annad

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Signature comparison
« on: Tuesday 07 February 17 11:21 GMT (UK) »
Hi Everyone,

Would you please take a look at these two signatures to see if you think they are both be by the same Mary Barnes. The top one is from her first marriage in 1867, the bottom  from her second marriage seven years later. Both marriage certificates state that her father is James Barnes, shoemaker. If it is her then she would be marrying bigamously as her first husband would have been very much alive in 1874.

Thanks

Anna
Chesterfield, Staveley, Brampton, Whittington, Brimington, Newbold - Derbyshire, Dronfield, Matlock
Whittlesey, Thorney - Cambridgeshire
Bridport, Weymouth, Wyke Regis - Dorset
London
Markfield -Leicestershire
Hethe, Bicester, Bucknell - Oxfordshire
Steeple Claydon, Fenny Stratford - Bucks
Bishop's Castle, - Shropshire
Newcastle West, Co Limerick, Ireland
Navan, Co Meath, Ireland
Curragh, Co Kildare, Ireland
Colwich, Great Haywood, Staffordshire

Offline Rosinish

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Re: Signature comparison
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 07 February 17 12:23 GMT (UK) »
I would say it was the same hand.

My initial is 'A' & have noticed I sometimes do a rounded 'a' whereas other times a straight 'A' depending on whether I'm in a hurry!

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline rosie99

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Re: Signature comparison
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 07 February 17 12:27 GMT (UK) »
Similar but the capital M is different  ???
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Annad

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Re: Signature comparison
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 07 February 17 12:35 GMT (UK) »
Thanks both. I thought that she may have tried to alter her signature if she was a bigamist. Mind you she was only 17 when she signed the first one, so it's possible it could have changed over the years.
Chesterfield, Staveley, Brampton, Whittington, Brimington, Newbold - Derbyshire, Dronfield, Matlock
Whittlesey, Thorney - Cambridgeshire
Bridport, Weymouth, Wyke Regis - Dorset
London
Markfield -Leicestershire
Hethe, Bicester, Bucknell - Oxfordshire
Steeple Claydon, Fenny Stratford - Bucks
Bishop's Castle, - Shropshire
Newcastle West, Co Limerick, Ireland
Navan, Co Meath, Ireland
Curragh, Co Kildare, Ireland
Colwich, Great Haywood, Staffordshire


Offline Rosinish

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Re: Signature comparison
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 07 February 17 12:55 GMT (UK) »
My middle initial is 'M' but sometimes I have a rounded 'm' other times a straight 'M' again, depending on whether I'm in a hurry or how impoertant the doc. is.

Annie/annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline rosie17

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Re: Signature comparison
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 07 February 17 13:49 GMT (UK) »
Similar but the capital M is different  ???

Yes I would agree M different  :)
Rosie

Offline arthurk

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Re: Signature comparison
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 07 February 17 13:52 GMT (UK) »
I agree there are some similarities, but my general feeling is that they are by different people. The "M" and the "r" in particular are different, but the second one looks much more fluent to me - a greater slope, and narrower and slightly less careful letters.

However, you say they are from "certificates", and assuming these are from England or Wales, these do not always include the original signatures of the parties being married. The circumstances I can think of where you would see the original signature on a certificate are:
1. it comes from a local register office which incorporates a photocopy of the register
2. it was issued at the time of the marriage where the minister allowed the couples to sign it themselves, rather than copying the signatures himself
3. it was issued by the GRO, and the minister had (very unusually) asked the couple to sign the quarterly return form that is used by the GRO to compile their indexes, and sometimes incorporated in certificates

Case 1 is fairly common, but in cases 2 and 3 you might not be able to find out whether it had happened or not, though you might sometimes suspect it if the writing is very different from the rest of the entry.

So, can you confirm that these are copies of the actual signatures in the register?

Arthur
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Annad

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Re: Signature comparison
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 07 February 17 14:11 GMT (UK) »
They are from the original church register certificates, I tracked both certificates down to compare the signatures. I agree that the R is different and obviously the M. Both 'Y's are very similar and also the E and S. The B is written in a very similar manner and the only other B I have seen written like this was by Mary's sister. (I know there will be others).  I only managed to track down the second marriage due to all I know about my Mary Barnes from the first marriage.

Chesterfield, Staveley, Brampton, Whittington, Brimington, Newbold - Derbyshire, Dronfield, Matlock
Whittlesey, Thorney - Cambridgeshire
Bridport, Weymouth, Wyke Regis - Dorset
London
Markfield -Leicestershire
Hethe, Bicester, Bucknell - Oxfordshire
Steeple Claydon, Fenny Stratford - Bucks
Bishop's Castle, - Shropshire
Newcastle West, Co Limerick, Ireland
Navan, Co Meath, Ireland
Curragh, Co Kildare, Ireland
Colwich, Great Haywood, Staffordshire

Offline rosie99

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Re: Signature comparison
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 07 February 17 14:28 GMT (UK) »
Who were the marriages to  :-\
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk