Author Topic: 1939 register - closing an open identity  (Read 15543 times)

Offline Rosinish

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #90 on: Monday 20 February 17 14:23 GMT (UK) »
Yes Nick;

"In terms of discovering illegitimate children, the new GRO index and FreeBMD offer far more scope  :-X"

That's true but the point here is people are requesting something which was set out in the T & C's which is almost being ignored when a request is made.

Personally, it wouldn't bother me & if by chance I did find something I shouldn't have on someone who's still living, I would just keep it to myself but others have different thoughts/ideas & their requests should be honoured.

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Offline Nick_Ips

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #91 on: Monday 20 February 17 14:37 GMT (UK) »

Oh yes, I do agree that if people find their (or a close family member's) record incorrectly opened then there should be a fairly easy way of getting it closed. If I understand correctly, TNA and FindMyPast have amended their approach so 'proof of life' (e.g. passport, driving license etc) is no longer insisted on.

If the process feels less than easy then perhaps it is the issue that Guy raised - that incorrectly reclosing a record has the potential for aiding fraudulent activity, so some 'due diligence' is required to make sure someone is actually alive. Whether FindMyPast have different systems in place to do that depending on the data source we can only speculate on, but it could explain the different approaches people have reported in this RC topic.

Equally though, people shouldn't just be able to have a stranger's record reclosed because they feel it should be. So checking to ensure the request is made by or on behalf of the person in question should also be part of the process, even if it is done following an immediate temporary take-down.

Offline jc26red

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #92 on: Monday 20 February 17 16:25 GMT (UK) »
My reply from FindMyPast was the hard line, proof of living was still needed, though they happily accepted and updated the transcription errors!  ::)  I have done a search for most people in my tree and my husband's which might explain whey they think I have no connected to my MIL, even though we have the same surname and I explained the close connection  ::)
I have now sent off proof of living, though how it proves she is still living I haven't a clue as at nearly 97 every day is a bonus. 

While I agree that we should only have the power to close close/immediate family, I think the process should be made far simpler and FindMyPast should redact the person until full enquiries are made. Very simple these days particularly as they even requested my full contact details.

There is more to my MIL's early life which she found quite distressing, which I know she wouldn't want online. It's not a straight forward, happy young lady living with her parents story.

My own parents on the other hand would be thrilled to see their names on it! I wouldn't ask for their names to be redacted  ;D  I also haven't asked for the many others I know are still living to be redacted... I am not close family to them, I do not keep my trees online and neither do I share this information on living people... I, like many of you learnt the hard way not to divulge to much of my tree. >:(
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Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #93 on: Monday 20 February 17 16:33 GMT (UK) »
No, I have not gone through the Data Protection Act etc. I asked FindMyPast whether the records of living people in the 1939 Register were covered by their Data Protection Act registration, or exempt (as I assumed there was no point contacting the ICO about it if they were exempt), and if exempt, why, and their reply was just that living people's records are closed if they are under 100 years old, which didn't help. So I contacted the ICO and they said to open a case.  It's up to them now.

If the 1939 Register records of living people are not covered by the Data Protection Act then I wonder why the "Takedown form" for the 1939 Register on Findmypast says "You can use this form to request a takedown of a record if the information you have found is open and you believe it should be closed under the Data Protection Act 1998."  But I don't really think there would be any point asking Findmypast.

The 100 year rule is not something with legal standing and is really nothing more than office policy,

There was a 100 year rule legislated for under a Lord Chancellor's Statutory Instrument number 12 in 1966 but that was repealed by the Freedom of Information Act.

Only six out of the 15 pre-1910 United Kingdom censuses have been closed for 100 years; nine out of 15 have been released after less than 90 years. The average closure period for censuses in Britain is 80 years.

Rather than worry about the occasional error we the general public should be more worried about parliament being deliberately lied to as was done on at least three occasions when deliberating on whether the NHS used the 1939 register as the basis of the NHS register.
The fact that civil servants can blatantly lie to parliament with no repercussions is to my mind far more important.

In a similar way the Registrar General exceeded his authority with the 1981 census (the first one to carry a promise of closure of the census for 100 years) he later had to admit to parliament that he had no right to make that promise and had to apologise to parliament. He should have had to apolgise to the public and then been sacked on the spot.

 
To my mind, the question is not whether living people's records should be opened or not, but whether FindMyPast's process for opening records actually stuck to the rules which they had agreed with TNA, and if it did, there must be something seriously wrong with the post-2007 GRO death index as it must include records exactly matching people who are still alive who are considered "unique" according to the matching rules (e.g. there must have been a death registration for a Michael R Heseltine with the exact same date of birth as Lord Heseltine., a death registration for a Dennis E Skinner with the exact same date of birth as the MP, and so on.)  I am hoping that we will eventually know what the explanation is!

 

The simple answer to that is FindMyPast have worked with the NHS and the TNA to release the data on the 1939. They are in close contact with each other and developed the procedures together; it is not a case of the TNA and the NHS standing back.

One explanation of records of living people being open is one created by the system used to transcribe the 1939.
Instead of transcribing line by line FindMyPast was required to redact all columns except the column to be transcribed, i.e. the transcribers only viewed one column of text, such a method allowed errors such as lines being missed in a column or a line transcribed twice. Some of these were found in the pre-release checks some slipped through.
It would have been far better to have allowed the transcribers access to the full page from the register rather than being paranoid about a transcriber remembering information from hundreds of lines transcribed in a day.
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Guy
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Offline katerimmer

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #94 on: Monday 20 February 17 17:18 GMT (UK) »
Yes, Guy, I realise that some living people's records are open because of transcription errors on the 1939 Register, some of which are caused by the particular process they used to transcribe it, and of course we have to accept that can happen, but none of the examples I have seen of living people's records which were opened in the November 2016 update were due to that type of problem.
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Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #95 on: Monday 20 February 17 17:19 GMT (UK) »
Yes, Guy, I realise that some living people's records are open because of transcription errors on the 1939 Register, some of which are caused by the particular process they used to transcribe it, and of course we have to accept that can happen, but none of the examples I have seen of living people's records which were opened in the November 2016 update were due to that type of problem.

Ok, thanks.
Cheers
Guy
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Offline jc26red

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #96 on: Monday 20 February 17 17:40 GMT (UK) »
I think I now know how  my MIL's information was opened.
There is another lady,  initials B E whose married name is the same as MIL, similar ages. When I found my MIL, her first and middle name had been transposed because of an error when the 1939 form was originally completed but later corrected. The FindMyPast transcriber only noted her names in the wrong order  (B E).  Its very likely the other lady has since passed.
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Offline BumbleB

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #97 on: Monday 20 February 17 17:52 GMT (UK) »
My apologies for this - and I openly admit that I have no intention of reading all the responses to this thread - but I cannot possibly see the problem with viewing "open" entries, which should possibly be still "closed" due to the age of that person - my thought is - be glad you're still alive, and possibly still causing chaos  :o

Whoever the person is/whatever they've done since 1939, the information related to that person has not been updated for around 20-30 years = 1990's :-X

OK, I don't even appear on the 1939 - not born until 1942 - but anything on this Register would be at least 20-30 years out of date   ;)

IMHO, if you keep on "knocking" the release of information, then the "powers that be" will cease to let us have access to it.  Take your pick  :-\
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Offline Nick_Ips

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Re: 1939 register - closing an open identity
« Reply #98 on: Thursday 23 February 17 14:31 GMT (UK) »

No need to trawl the 1939 Register looking for details...

Instead, con people into applying for a fake job to get their details. Use the details to get marriage certificates, use the marriage certificate to register babies that don't exist, use the resulting fake birth certificates to claim benefits.

Simple eh? Apparently no checks being made on who is applying for a certificate and why (which of course there is no legal restriction on anyway). And you don't even need to do the first step of the fake job in order to get someones real birth certificate and hence date of birth, mothers maiden name etc.

And he was caught because he went back to a Registrars Office he'd previously visited and the staff recognised him. Nothing to do with the backroom systems detecting anything odd.

Man registered 26 non-existent babies -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-39063473