Warners in Loughborough

[markfwarner]

Hi all

I think Gwynne's post is very useful, as it suggests a link between the family of William Warner and Catherine Bradford [married 1815] and the family of Francis Warner and Grace Wigley [married 1786].

Gwynne's last post shows that, in the 1851 census, Ellen, daughter of William and Catherine and married to Joseph Smith, had 2 visitors: Francis John Oldner Warner [born in Basford, Nottingham] and his fiancée Jane Whitmore. They marry, but in 1861, Francis John dies and is buried in Leicester near his grandmother, Grace Wigley. This would make Francis John the son of one of Grace's children. Grace's four male children are George [b.1787], Samuel [b.1790], William [b. 1792 and dies in 1826] or John [born 1796]. Was Francis John visiting his cousin Ellen? I think tracking down Francis John might just lead us to William....

I have also done some research into the fascinating similarities between the names of William/Catherine's and Francis/Grace's children, as I have thought for a while, like Gwynne, that our William is related to the Francis Warner/Grace Wigley family. Both Gwynne and I have discovered that William and Catherine's eldest child was named John, born in 1816 but not living at the family home by the time of the 1841 census, as he has married Ann and has two children, William and Ann. Unless it is a coincidence, almost all of William and Catherine's children have names which MIGHT correspond to close family members. I am aware that there were a number of very common names which appear in lots of families. However, John, William, George, Frances, Sarah and Ann are names that William gave to some of his children; all crop up regularly in Francis's family as well, especially John, although the names William, Frances, George and Ann are all names of Catherine Bradford's siblings as well.

Other names of William's children, such as Dinah and Catherine, only seem to appear on the Bradford side. My great-great grandfather, Alfred, doesn't appear on either side as yet.

Also; William's son Alfred [my g-g-grandfather] named one of his daughters Grace; after his grandmother Grace Wigley,, possibly?

So, William might have named his first son after his father, brother or grandfather. As a name, John does not appear on the immediate Bradford side but Francis Warner had a grandfather, brother and son all called John. It might be possible that William's father is Francis's brother John, born 1769. Also, Francis himself had a son called John, born in 1796; could he have been born John William, and then dropped the name John at a later date? This happens a lot; my own Uncle Bill was christened George William but was always known as Bill.

I am going to find out as much as I can about the Warner/Wigley family, especially any further links to Basford in Nottingham and the Wigley burial in Leicester.

Thanks to Gwynne for the brilliant research about Francis John; it might just lead us all somewhere.

Mark

[Toni14]

Hi,
I have started researching a friend's family and found that Francis John Oldner Warner seemed to be relevant.  He was involved in a few partnerships in the hosiery trade, including an elastic web business with Edwy Dyson based on Humberstone Road. Anyway, I read your post and noticed that you did not mention another son of Grace nee Wigley, Francis born 1801 in Loughborough.  He seems to be Francis J O Warner's father, as they dissolve a partnership 'Francis Warner and Son' in 1859. The elder Francis was a glove manufacturer for many years in various parts of Leicester. Anyway, I thought it might be of interest.  I try to verify things as much as possible online but am very aware of the errors that can be perpetuated on Ancestry so I hope my details are sound. A trip to the records office is overdue!

[markfwarner]

Hi Toni

Thanks for the reply. I also think Francis is important; as you point out, his father seems to be Francis Warner, son of Francis and Grace. I have found a Francis Warner, married to Jane, with a son Francis, living in St Margaret's, Leicester, in 1841. Francis is 10, which fits with him being 20 on the 1851 census, when he and his fiancée Jane are guests of Joseph and Ellen Smith [nee Warner]. Francis is listed as a Birkin glover. This, I think, relates to the Birkin glove factory in Nottingham and Francis is listed as having been born in Basford, Nottingham.
The reason for this is that framework knitters moved around between Nottingham, Derby, Leicester and Loughborough more than we perhaps thought they would have done in those years, perhaps to follow the work on offer.
So, Francis, father of Francis Oldner,  may in turn be the son of Francis Warner and Grace Wigley, who was born in Loughborough but may have moved with his family to Nottingham for the work. At some point, then, Francis moves back from Nottingham to settle in Leicester, with his family including young Francis Oldner, as suggested by the 1841 census.
Such movement was common. Some framework knitters from Loughborough went to Devon, to follow Thomas Heathcote, who had invented new hosiery machinery which led to all the Luddite riots in the area; others went to Cornwall, including Francis, Grace Wigley's husband, who died there.; still others went to America, such as Francis's son George [born 1787], in 1818.

On the 1851 census, Francis Warner [senior] and wife Jane are living on Main St, in Oadby, a few miles from St Margarets. This is interesting because, as you have pointed out,  he is listed as a Master Glover, same as his son Francis and same also as William Warner, my direct relative, whose parents and family I am trying to find.
One other link is that Francis Oldner's wife, Jane, is also from Oadby and returns there to live with her parents after Francis's death.

A little progress but still plenty to do to establish firm links. However, I feel more sure now that my ggg-grandfather William is related to Francis and Grace's family.

Cheers

Mark

[Jomot]

I'm not sure if this helps, but one of my LRFHS CD's details the following removal orders between St Margaret's & Loughborough:

1838 - Ref 18D62/16/151
John Warner deceased
Catherine 38
Samuel 17
Thomas 15
Sarah 7
Francis 3
John 2

1838 - Ref 18D62/16/152
Francis Warner deceased
Grace Warner 75

[markfwarner]

Hi all

Thanks again for the various replies. Lynne's BlogSpot is a trove of very interesting material.
I loved the picture of Warner's Corner and I also found the ghost signs of Loughborough fascinating and very moving. I love old buildings, in particular, old factories. I remember my father taking me with him on Wednesday afternoons when he went to local factories in Leicester and Nottingham [and Coventry, I think] in order to buy stock for the business. These factories seemed to me to be rather austere but rather grand, too.
Anyway, I have been pursuing links between various Warner families. I have looked into Nottingham Warners, due to the recent posts about the possible links between Francis John Oldner Warner and William Warner's daughter, Ellen [see Gwynne's recent post]. Francis John had clear links with Nottingham as he was born in Basford and so may indicate that William's family, did, too.
I have found that a John and Sarah Warner's son William was baptised at St Mary's Church on the 4th of September 1795. Although our William is listed as being from Loughborough on the 1841 census, it is possible that he was born in Nottingham and raised in Loughborough from an early age and therefore put that down on the census. His birth is listed as circa 1796 as he is 45 in 1841 but a 1795 birth is possible; it depends whether the 1841 census was before or after his birthday. William's eldest son is named John and one of his daughters is named Sarah, though these are common names at the time.
Also, I think John was born in Loughborough [due to a post on another thread by Framesmiths 1816] and moved to Nottingham; he could possibly be Francis Warner's brother John, born circa 1769.
If he is, and his son is our William, then William is cousin to Francis Warner, son of Francis and Grace. If, in turn, Francis is the father of Francis John Oldner Warner, then FJO is second cousin to William's daughter Ellen, who appear together on the 1851 census in Leicester.
I think I need a lie-down now; my brain is imploding....trouble is, with so many 'ifs', it is hard to sketch out a scenario without involving this kind of long-winded sentence, for which I apologise!

Finally, Jomot's recent post is very interesting and shows strong links between Warners in Loughborough and Leicester. Also, the names are John and Francis, suggesting potential links between Francis and Grace's family and maybe our William's. Certainly, the Grace mentioned must be Grace Warner/Wigley, whose husband Francis has already died by this date, in 1825, in Cornwall. I'm not sure who the Francis who has died here is. John Warner here could possibly be William's father, although we don't know his age; he could have been living with his daughter Catherine and his grandchildren. Or, he could be Francis and Grace's son John, born circa 1796, making him 42 and Catherine's husband, not her father. The names are all very consistent with Francis and Grace's family names.
I think removals orders means that the main breadwinner in the family had died and so, in order to receive parish relief as defined by the Poor Law, dependents were removed back to their original parish. This also may have involved workhouse relief but let's hope not, for all their sakes.

Sorry about the length of this post but there was a lot to catch up on....

Cheers

Mark 

[Jomot]

His birth is listed as circa 1796 as he is 45 in 1841 but a 1795 birth is possible; it depends whether the 1841 census was before or after his birthday

The instructions on the 1841 census were that adult ages should be rounded down to the nearest 5 years, so someone listed as 45 would have been born between 1792-1796, ie aged 45-49.

[markfwarner]

Hi all

Jomot's point about the rounding off of ages on the 1841 census is really interesting; I have never heard of this before. It means that there may be more flexibility when searching for William; I have assumed that he must have been born in 1796, give or take a year.
However, I have checked the parish church records for All Saints, Loughborough, and there is no William within the new potential date range, so I will have to keep on looking in other places.

Cheers

Mark