Samuel Gregory jnr

[Alex Edge]

Please bear with me, there is a question:

24 Jan. 1848 Samuel Gregory snr. married Ellen Skidmore at Earl Sterndale Church
 ?? ??   1852 Samuel Gregory jnr. is born  (Derived from two National Census entries)
21 Sep. 1855 Ellen dies.  "Inflammation of the lungs & Debility"  (Death Certificate obtained)
23 Sep. 1855 Ellen interred in Earl Sterndale churchyard
3  Dec.  1856 Samuel Gregory snr. marries Martha Belfield at Ashbourne
?? Sep. 1857  Martha gives birth to the first of seven children born over the next 13 years.
Samuel Gregory jnr appears in the 1861 and 1871 Census Returns (In 1871 he is a 19 years old Apprentice Carpenter; his father's calling).  After the 1871 Census entry I can find no trace of him or reference to him in any records. Neither Civil Registration nor Church Records or Emigration or Criminal. 

Is it possible for someone's birth and death to not be recorded in the Civil Registers (BTW Martha's children were registered)?

Alex Edge

[CaroleW]

I have asked the moderator to move this to the Derbyshire board

[CaroleW]

?? ??   1852 Samuel Gregory jnr. is born  (Derived from two National Census entries)

You did not include his birthplace for tracing purposes.

The family were in Derbyshire in 1861 but Samuel jnr was born in Longnor, Staffordshire

[CaroleW]

What is odd is that Samuel & Ellen were living in Derbyshire in 1851 and both were born there so why was Samuel born in Staffs?

[rosie99]

Is it possible for someone's birth and death to not be recorded in the Civil Registers (BTW Martha's children were registered)?

It is not unusual for births in the earlier days of registration to be missed.  The onus was not on the parents at that time but the local registrar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Register_Office_for_England_and_Wales

[CaroleW]

Samuel & Ellen had no children by 1851.  I have a feeling that Samuel jnr was not born a Gregory and was informally "adopted" by them

[Alex Edge]

Thanks to everyone who replied.  I omitted the birth place because I didn't want to add unnecessary details.  In farming families it was common for daughters to return to their mother's home for the birth of their first child, sometimes second children also.  Samuel's family lived in Crowdicote, Derbyshire, which adjoins the river forming the county boundary.  I believe Ellen walked the two miles or so to Longnor to be with a relative for the birth.  This is very similar to the two other times this occurs in my research to date, couple living in one county, birth in Staffordshire, baptism back in home county.

On Ellen's death certificate no doctor was present at the time of death and I have the feeling she had been ailing for a long time and her death was not unexpected.  Her burial two days later seems to indicate a certain expectation of the inevitable.

The Wiki piece was very informative; it indicates that it should nevertheless be possible to find a Death Certificate and a Civil Registration of Death for Samuel jnr.

[CaroleW]

The Wiki piece was very informative; it indicates that it should nevertheless be possible to find a Death Certificate and a Civil Registration of Death for Samuel jnr.

Providing he died in England or Wales.  If he died in Scotland - you would have to look for a death on

https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-our-records

If he emigrated - you would need to establish which country and search for a death there

There was a Samuel Gregory born March qtr 1851 but he is with parents in 1851 and 1861.  Just be aware that if you find a possible death - make sure it isn't the other Samuel

[MaureeninNY]

Do you think it's possible that he was Martha's son?

There's a birth for Samuel BELFIELD:
BELFIELD, SAMUEL        -     no maiden name for mother
 1852  M Quarter in LEEK  Volume 06B  Page 207

Of course that begs the question of who the father was. Just a coincidence with the first name?

A Samuel BELFIELD occ:joiner marries Rosannah TOMLINSON Nov 1875 in Manchester. There's a blank for father's name. On later census he says he was born 1852 Longnor.

Pure speculation,though. 

Maureen