Abandoned Gypsy Wagons, WW2 ....?

[Steve G]

The title, " Gypsy Fairs during World War II " brought this back to me. I read it, somewhere. I do believe it could have been in " The Last Ditch " by David Lampe. 1968.

Point is; There was mention of, I suppose, some abandoned airfield, or something. What ever. During the war, the authorities were trying to make it no good for landing anything on. And it stated how various obstacles were put there, including the ~ rather eye catching! ~ particular mention of " abandoned Gypsy Wagons. " 

Yes! Bit mind boggling, isn't it? Enough of them that they got noticed and specifically mentioned. Suggests more than a couple then? And, why? Why did these Gypsys abandon them? Where did they go?

England, obviously. One may well imagine the Continent being rife with no longer occupied wagons, once the Einsatzgruppen passed through    But, where did these, British mainland, wagon owners and inhabitants suddenly vanish to?

I can't help but wonder if this may be a glimmer of light shed on ~ as I've always thought of it ~ The " Dave Allen's 'Wide Mouthed Frog' effect "
 

[CitizenSmith]

Hi Steve

That's a fascinating reference. I've read about something that may be allied to this although it doesn't relate to abandoned Gypsy wagons but to ones that were inhabited.

The story goes that during WW2 Gypsy families were encouraged to take their vans to permanent camps and live there in a fixed place for the duration of the War rather than travel. It makes sense when you consider that many male Gypsies (and no doubt a good number of female ones) were involved in War service and so weren't around to drive horse-drawn wagons or take care of the horses. And there were of course many other restrictions to limit a travelling lifestyle: food rationing rules, petrol rationing, removal of road signs and sign posts, a heightened suspicion of strangers and so on.

One permanent camp of this type that I've come across was Hawkspur Camp near Little Bardfield, Essex. From 1936 to 1940 it had been a pioneering reform school for teenage men. From 1940 it seems to have commandeered as a permanent site for use by Gypsy families. I have in my possession the 1942 marriage certificate of a Cinderella Parker and a Cush Butler who both give their place of residence as Hawkspur Camp. And older people in that area today remember Gypsies living there. But despite extensive research, I've so far come across no official records relating to this wartime use of Hawkspur Camp.

Sharon

[Steve G]

This is So aggravating, Sharon! I've took out " The Last Ditch " and, first of all, read the start of every chapter. I was convinced it started a chapter. Nope.

Then, I've gone right through the book, looking at the start of every Paragraph! Blowed if I could find that bloody reference again though

Thing is, see, you reference Essex? Yeppers. And Essex ~ along with the whole south eastern, coastal, corner of england was where much of this stuff focussed. So, it makes sense that Lampe would relate something about a place there.

 Airfield? Flat places, full of aircraft. Or abandoned wagons. And, East Anglia is a flat place. And Essex borders it. Hmmm .....

Ye say Gypsys were " encouraged ", by the government, to get off the road? (Lovely euphemism, under those circumstances, eh?) I wonder then, how many, for what ever reason, just decided to accept alternative accommodation, 'for the duration'?

Interesting, and thought provoking, input, either way. Thanks.  So; I have 'abandoned' wagons. Now, you have Gypsys, effectively, interned .......... Fascinating stuff. Fascinating period of history! I really wish there was a way of digging further into all this. Buggers are all dead, unfortunately 

[CitizenSmith]

Thanks, Steve. If I find out any more, I'll let you know.

Perhaps it would be interesting to see if there are any more marriages or baptisms in or around Little Bardfield during the War years to get an idea of how big this temporary 'community' was - if it was in fact a long-standing encampment - and how long it was there. Perhaps I'll give that a go now.

Sharon

[Steve G]

Wish I could help ye, with that. Unfortunately, I'm no longer a (Paid) member of anywhere. And, it's been so long since I burrowed, I'd be no good to man or beast anyway.

I like thinking, and reading, though. If anything pops up, I'll let ye know!

Can hardly believe this hasn't drawn more attention. Social History is what it's all about, to me. I don't Do that whole 'Pedigree' thing.