Author Topic: Help to translate from Latin probate document 1675  (Read 458 times)

Offline stevemiller

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Help to translate from Latin probate document 1675
« on: Wednesday 08 March 17 17:45 GMT (UK) »
I have a forty-year-old Latin 'O' level but freely admit I remember nothing!

I've tried to find online resources but without luck to decipher this.

Nicholas Froud died intestate in 1675, but among his probate papers was an "account" - a type of document I've not come across before. It shows how his wealth was disposed after funeral expenses, etc to his widow and 4 children.

But what exactly does the text mean?

SORRY - image did not attach  - I'll try again
Berks - Appleton Barlow Bartholomew Carter/Cook Corderoy Coxhead Froud Fryzer Griffin Head Noke Richmond Salter Sawyer Shrimpton Sidwell Stratton Wernham
South Bucks - Miller Mitchell Horton
Cornwall - John Henry Grigg born c 1839 where?
Hants - Hine/Hind
South Oxon - Barlow Fryzer Simmonds Toby
Suffolk - Philpott Stone
Surrey Edwards Knight Lanaway

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Offline arthurk

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Re: Help to translate from Latin probate document 1675
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 08 March 17 19:33 GMT (UK) »
That's an interesting document to have. There's a fair bit of abbreviation in there, but the translation is:

To Martha Froud, administratrix and relict of the aforesaid deceased, the sum of 48 12s 4d
To Joseph Froud, natural and legitimate son of the said deceased, the sum of 24 6s 2d
*To Benjamin, son etc the sum of 24 6s 2d
*To John, son etc the sum of 24 6s 2d
To Mary, natural and legitimate daughter of the said deceased, the sum of 24 6s 2d

*The word order is different in Latin, and "etc" will refer to the omitted phrase "natural and legitimate [son] of the said deceased"

The amounts involved suggest that there were defined proportions in which intestate estates were to be distributed. Possibly that the widow received twice as much as each of the children? That's only a guess, though.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help to translate from Latin probate document 1675
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 09 March 17 00:35 GMT (UK) »
The amounts involved suggest that there were defined proportions in which intestate estates were to be distributed.

After 1670, the administrator had to distribute one third of the intestate's estate to the widow, and the rest to the children in equal shares.

Offline stevemiller

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Re: Help to translate from Latin probate document 1675
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 09 March 17 10:42 GMT (UK) »
Thank you both for your help and insights.

I was taking "filius natalis" [?] as "natural son" in it's later meaning of illegitimate - so I'm grateful to you, arthurk, for translating it as the very opposite !

FamilySearch has the baptism of Mary d/o Nicholas on 6 Mar 1674 at Welford BRK [where Nicholas died and was buried], so the distribution of intestate estates appears to have been strict, regardless of age.

No baptisms for the three sons yet, but this document adds another generation to my tree, I think.

 
Berks - Appleton Barlow Bartholomew Carter/Cook Corderoy Coxhead Froud Fryzer Griffin Head Noke Richmond Salter Sawyer Shrimpton Sidwell Stratton Wernham
South Bucks - Miller Mitchell Horton
Cornwall - John Henry Grigg born c 1839 where?
Hants - Hine/Hind
South Oxon - Barlow Fryzer Simmonds Toby
Suffolk - Philpott Stone
Surrey Edwards Knight Lanaway

Offline arthurk

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Re: Help to translate from Latin probate document 1675
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 09 March 17 14:12 GMT (UK) »
I was taking "filius natalis" [?] as "natural son" in it's later meaning of illegitimate - so I'm grateful to you, arthurk, for translating it as the very opposite !

This is one of the abbreviated words. In full it's "naturalis", but the line above indicates that some letters are omitted.

"Natural" is one of those words that can catch you out with its opposite meanings, so the context and surrounding words are important. I hope Bookbox will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that unless specifically provided for in a will, illegitimate children would have no claim on an estate. Without a will, the estate would be divided between the spouse and legitimate children (or failing them, possibly other relatives - cf Heir Hunters on TV), so even without the wording given, the fact that they are shown here as getting an inheritance would indicate that they were legitimate.

Arthur
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Help to translate from Latin probate document 1675
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 09 March 17 17:31 GMT (UK) »
I'm in full agreement with Arthur on this.

Offline stevemiller

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Re: Help to translate from Latin probate document 1675
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 09 March 17 18:43 GMT (UK) »
Thank you both for your extensive knowledge; I learn more with each posting - I thought the line above the word was the crossing of the "t" !

I only posted a snippet which listed the widow and children. In all there are eight pages covering an administration bond, an inventory, an account and a commission (as per the Berkshire Probate Index), and they are a mixture of Latin and English.

I might be back once I start transcribing them  :)
Berks - Appleton Barlow Bartholomew Carter/Cook Corderoy Coxhead Froud Fryzer Griffin Head Noke Richmond Salter Sawyer Shrimpton Sidwell Stratton Wernham
South Bucks - Miller Mitchell Horton
Cornwall - John Henry Grigg born c 1839 where?
Hants - Hine/Hind
South Oxon - Barlow Fryzer Simmonds Toby
Suffolk - Philpott Stone
Surrey Edwards Knight Lanaway

Offline Hamilton David

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Re: Help to translate from Latin probate document 1675
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 19 December 17 09:31 GMT (UK) »
Hi
I've been referred to this dialogue with regard to Nicholas Froud's will.

Nicholas was my wife's ancestor, she was brought up at Wickham and for some time we lived at Welford often taking walks through the churchyard not knowing about the ancestral links. She thought her Froud family came from Swindon.

However the document you have been discussing and transcribed is probably probably the document I am interested in, as I now understand he did not have a will.

So thanks

David

Offline ribbo39

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Re: Help to translate from Latin probate document 1675
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 07 March 18 22:03 GMT (UK) »
Hi Stevemiller,

I have just sent an PM to you re Nicholas Froude.

Alan
Browse, Peggs, Revans/Revance/Ribbans, Spall,   in Suffolk/Norfolk
Belcher, Elderfield, Froude, Saunders,  Stimson, Tame,   in Berks
Artis, Gray in Norfolk