Author Topic: Where did Richard Whittaker come from?  (Read 2614 times)

Offline LizzieW

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Where did Richard Whittaker come from?
« on: Friday 10 March 17 11:37 GMT (UK) »
My husband's 3 x g.grandfather Richard Whittaker married Susanna Moss at St Mary's Church, Stockport on 28 June 1795 by banns.  There was one witness named a James Clarkson who, I imagine, was the parish clerk as he is the witness for other marriages on the same page of the parish register.  Richard was shown of this parish, a hatter and Susanna was a spinster also shown of this parish - at least I think that's what it says, (see below).

The question is where on earth did Richard and Susanna come from?  We can't find any baptisms for either of them, although a distant ancestor in USA seems to think that Richard had two brothers called John born around 1756 and Abraham born around 1761 who died about 1833.  From the age of Richard at the time of his death in 1836, we think he was born about 1769/70 and Susanna probably about 1776.  Unfortunately Susanna died in 1842 so neither of them were on the 1851 census which might have given us a clue as to their origins.

One of Richard's grandsons, (my husband's g.grandfather) married someone from Warwickshire whose ancestors were all from Warwickshire so I guess it's possible that the Whittakers came from Warwickshire originally.

Has anyone any ideas?

Offline lizdb

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Re: Where did Richard Whittaker come from?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 10 March 17 11:54 GMT (UK) »
Where does the distant relation in the US get the info from about the brothers? What is their evidence that these were Richards brothers? Who were the parents of those two boys and where were they christened? Have they found a chr for Richard in the same area with the same parents around the right year for him?
Edmonds/Edmunds - mainly Sussex
DeBoo - London
Green - Suffolk
Parker - Sussex
Kemp - Essex
Farrington - Essex
Boniface - West Sussex

census information is Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline LizzieW

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Re: Where did Richard Whittaker come from?
« Reply #2 on: Friday 10 March 17 11:58 GMT (UK) »
Interestingly (and it could just be a coincidence) on FindMyPast there is a marriage bond dated 19 January 1793 stating that a John Alsop of Manchester in the County of Lancaster and the Diocese of Chester, a gentleman aged 21 will marry a Susanna Moss of the parish of Manchester aforesaid aged 17 a spinster and a minor and that John Alsop paid for a licence for marriage in the collegiate parish church (which was Manchester Cathedral) and that Susanna Moss had for the previous 4 weeks the same abode as John Alsop.  However, this document was never signed.  I've looked at others either side of this one and they are all signed and dated by the relevant man.

If Susanna Moss was aged 17 in January 1793 that ties in with the approx date of birth we have for her of 1776.  Is it possible that Susanna was going to marry a John Alsop and then fled to Cheshire with Richard Whittaker?  There is a baptism of a Susanna Moss in Manchester on 23 Jan 1774 (so not 1776) parents John and Mary, but although my husband's Susanna had 8 children, none of them was called either John or Mary.

Offline LizzieW

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Re: Where did Richard Whittaker come from?
« Reply #3 on: Friday 10 March 17 12:02 GMT (UK) »
I have no idea where the USA relative gets the info from, although they have got a marriage for one of Richard's apparent brothers in 1786 in Glossop, Derbyshire but no other info, so it might just be the American trend/hope of trawling through records and finding a name that fits  :o  I have got reams of emails from the US on this subject which I can go through again, but I have never found anything that makes me think they are correct.

There are no parents for these so called brothers, no baptisms, just guesses for dates of birth.  We have the approx date of birth of Richard from his will and his age given at burial.


Offline garstonite

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Re: Where did Richard Whittaker come from?
« Reply #4 on: Friday 10 March 17 12:34 GMT (UK) »
Hiya Lizzie - is that your tree on Geneanet ??
added
2 people on www.geneanet.org with Richard and Susanna Moss marriage 1795
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline LizzieW

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Re: Where did Richard Whittaker come from?
« Reply #5 on: Friday 10 March 17 12:51 GMT (UK) »
Just to give you some more info, of Richard and Susanna's  children, one was also called Richard born 1812 and he was my husband's ancester. 

Ok, I then found a marriage in 1855 of a Susannah Moss Whittaker, it turns out the marriage (in 1855) was conducted at Coppenhall Parish Church, which is near to Nantwich, Cheshire and interestingly, the name of Susannah Moss Whittaker’s father was Ralph, which was the name of 2 of Richard's (born 1812) children. Is there a distant connection there?

I've found some info in my notes.

"Another ancestor has been doing lots of searching at the Stockport Archives and found more children for Richard and Susannah.  What is interesting and probably points to Susannah Moss being the one baptised at Manchester Cathedral in 1774, parents John and Mary, is that the eldest two children of Richard and Susannah that she has found are called John and Mary!   She's searched through the Stockport Sunday School records and found a William Whittaker, father Richard, who was 13 at the time he started at the Sunday School on 20 November 1814.  So it seems that William is another son of Richard and Susannah. Which makes 11 children for them, John 1796, Mary 1798, William 1801, Elizabeth 1803, Sarah 1805-1816, Jane 1807, James 1810-1811 (living at Green Lane, Romiley when he died*), Richard 1812-1880 (my husband's ancestor) Hannah 1814, Alice 1818 and James 1820".

Green Lane, Romiley is interesting because that is where Susanna was living on the 1841 census and a William Whittaker born about 1801 was living next door to her, married with a bunch of children with names very similar to the names of Richard and Susanna's children.  That family and Susanna all have N next to their name to the question whether born in the county. 

So if we think Susanna Moss baptised in 1774 is correct, I wonder if the marriage banns in 1793 also related to her?  However, we are no nearer to finding Richard Whittaker's origins.

garstonite - no that's not my tree, I don't have a public tree.  I can't actually see the trees on that link without joining.

Offline LizzieW

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Re: Where did Richard Whittaker come from?
« Reply #6 on: Friday 10 March 17 12:53 GMT (UK) »
Unfortunately, Richard Whittaker died in 1836 so no census results to give us a clue as to his origins, likewise Susanna really as she died in 1842, although from the 1841 census we know she wasn't born in Cheshire.

Offline garstonite

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Re: Where did Richard Whittaker come from?
« Reply #7 on: Friday 10 March 17 12:55 GMT (UK) »
They did marry
Marriage: 23 Jan 1793 Collegiate, Manchester, Lancashire, England
 John Alsop, Gentleman - this Parish & Town of Manr.
 Susanna Moss - minor, Spinster, Manr.
     Witness: Thomas Moss; O. Barlow; John Harrison
     Married by Licence by: John Griffith
     Register: Marriages 1793, Page 300, Entry 115
     Source: LDS Film No 2356675
they have a daughter b 1802
so that is not your Susanna
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford

Offline LizzieW

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Re: Where did Richard Whittaker come from?
« Reply #8 on: Friday 10 March 17 13:00 GMT (UK) »
Thank you for that, at least we can take her out of the picture.  But we still go to the 1841 census which shows she wasn't born in Cheshire, so the 1774 baptism in Lancashire is looking promising.