Author Topic: Anybody heard of a RN Merchant ship HELVETIA  (Read 1577 times)

Offline seaweed

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Re: Anybody heard of a RN Merchant ship HELVETIA
« Reply #9 on: Monday 20 March 17 17:44 GMT (UK) »
If HELVETIA was chartered or requisitioned by HM Government. Then she should have crew agreements at the National Archive. Max has already given you a link.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C11105991 You will need to go to Kew to view but be aware that not all of these documents have survived.
You say you grandad was DEMS but was he Royal Artillery or Royal Navy?
Is there any chance you could put a copy of his service record on here as an attachment?
You can download the movement card of HELVETIA http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D8658536  Be aware that there were probably other merchant ships he served on as well.
I am at Kew tomorrow. Do you want me to look for the 1944 crew agreements of HELVETA  or would you rather look yourself?
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline shaun

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Re: Anybody heard of a RN Merchant ship HELVETIA
« Reply #10 on: Monday 20 March 17 18:00 GMT (UK) »
Oh my god if you could look, that would be amazing. Im not sure I will be able to get an image of his service records before tomorrow though as they are at my Parents house, not near where i live.

But his full name is Lawrence John Bundock

Service number: JX 312104

He was Royal Navy for sure.

He Trained at Glendower from 1941-1942.
then was at sea I believe


thank you so much for you help

Offline HMac

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Re: Anybody heard of a RN Merchant ship HELVETIA
« Reply #11 on: Monday 20 March 17 18:51 GMT (UK) »
Hi Shaun,

As SW has stated DEMS are very difficult to research and a different approach is usually needed. Service records should always be your first port for any serviceman but they don't give a breakdown of detached duty to DEMS i.e. individual merchant ships.

One approach is to use Crew Agreements of a known ship if this ship is at the end of his service all the better as you have the possibility of using those Crew Agreements to back track his service from that known ship to his previous ship etc. and with a bit of luck you may get somewhere. Be aware though that this method does have its drawbacks and your research can come to a dead end quickly if a previous ship was a war loss and shore copies [of crew listings] are in any way incomplete. You may or may not be lucky with the ship HELVETIA, she was Dutch and you will just have to see if the C.A is available and shows he was aboard and also names his previous ship.

If the C.A. for HELVETIA is not available you can try Henk Meurs, an expert on the Dutch Merchant Navy. I had no reply previously when using his email address but you can post on his facebook here: http://members.ziggo.nl/hmeurs/ he does hold Dutch crew lists.

Another method would be to go back to the MOD and request his Pay & Victualing Ledger which may give a breakdown of his actual [merchant] ships - The MOD holds Royal Navy Pay and Victualing Ledgers up to 1951. Give them his service number and request his P & V Ledger and state he was a DEMS gunner.

navysearchpgrc[AT]tnt.co.uk [email address altered for obvious reasons]

Director Naval Personnel,
TNT Records Management,
PO Box 7814,
William Nadin Way,
SWADLINCOTE,
Derbyshire,
DE11 1EG

As a caveat this method does not always work and you can then go down the road of a Freedom of Information request to the MOD, again not always successful, but leave no stone un-turned is my motto.

Let us know how you get on - good luck.

Regards
Hugh
Merchant Navy Research
ss CITY OF CAIRO

Offline shaun

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Re: Anybody heard of a RN Merchant ship HELVETIA
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 21 March 17 09:51 GMT (UK) »
Hi Hugh,

Thankyou so much for your help in this.

Yes I already have his service records and you are absolutely correct. It only lists his training camp Glendower and then President III, but not the ships he served on.

We was super lucky to find the envelope with the 'sent' address from HELVETIA.

SeaWeed has already offered to help by looking at the 1944 crew agreements for HELVETIA at Kew so that path is covered for the moment. Im hoping that Helvetia would have been one of the last ships he was on because his discharge paperwork says he was discharged April 1946.

Once I hear back from SeaWeed I will contact Henk too.

I will also definitely get into contact with MoD too.

Thanks Hugh I really appreciate everybodies time, help and knowledge on this.

Ive attached said envelope if everybody wants to have a look

Shaun


Online ALAMO2008

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Re: Anybody heard of a RN Merchant ship HELVETIA
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 21 March 17 10:03 GMT (UK) »
The Wreck of the Helvetia is on Rhossili Beach on The Gower. Have walked past it many times.



https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=rhossili+bay+helvetia&id=E958066F9CE842769B92927F4CE54521179C2B86&FORM=IQFRBA
CHAPMAN ROBINSON McKAY O'MALLEY

Offline seaweed

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Re: Anybody heard of a RN Merchant ship HELVETIA
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 21 March 17 20:54 GMT (UK) »
The Wreck of the Helvetia is on Rhossili Beach on The Gower. Have walked past it many times.



https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=rhossili+bay+helvetia&id=E958066F9CE842769B92927F4CE54521179C2B86&FORM=IQFRBA
Same name wrong ship. The vessel who's remains lie on Rhossili Beach are from the Norwegian barque of the same name. The vessel in question, is a Dutch vessel built in 1939. I believe she was scrapped in 1972.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline seaweed

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Re: Anybody heard of a RN Merchant ship HELVETIA
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 21 March 17 20:55 GMT (UK) »
Shaun,
Have some info for you. Will reply in detail tomorrow.
Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022

Offline shaun

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Re: Anybody heard of a RN Merchant ship HELVETIA
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 22 March 17 09:35 GMT (UK) »
OOOh thankyou SeaWeed,

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yes the Helvetia wreck on the beach was a much older wooden ship wasn't it?


Offline seaweed

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Re: Anybody heard of a RN Merchant ship HELVETIA
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 22 March 17 20:08 GMT (UK) »
As promised , I attended TNA and looked at the logbooks and crew agreements of the Dutch registered vessel HELVETIA. No Logbooks but I did find some Crew Agreements. They were what you call utility agreements, used more and more as the war continued. They give basic information and are nothing like regular C/A's.
The records I found say you grandfather first joined the ship as a AB Gunner in Shoreham 27/November/1943. He continued in this role until at least 14/July/1944.
The Gunners were three RN men. The other two were William Afflick from Bathgate but born in Musselborough and Robert Lawson from Glasgow. All continued until July 1944, having joined on 27/Nov/1943 (Afflick)  and 1/Feb/1944 (Lawson)
Your grandad gave his Next of Kin as A Bundock of 29, Hamerton? Road, Northfleet.
The conclusion I came to was the C/A's were far from complete but that is all we have.
Get in touch with Henk Meurs about the ship and follow Hugh's advise re MOD. I think you may have a little more digging to do before you find his complete service record.
If you would like copies of the photographs I took of the C/A's just send an email address via personal message. Good luck.

Dim ateb yn well nag ateb anghywir. Nid oes dim yn ddall fel rhai nad ydynt yn dymuno gweld

RIP Roger 10 August 2022