Author Topic: James Robert CARRUTHERS, born 1892 in Gateshead  (Read 701 times)

Offline Shiny1

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James Robert CARRUTHERS, born 1892 in Gateshead
« on: Monday 20 March 17 15:00 GMT (UK) »
Hi All,

I'm researching my great grand uncle, James Robert Carruthers who was born in Gateshead in 1892.

I know he joined up and served with the Northern Cyclist Battalion (service no 1870) then Lancashire Fusiliers (service no 235506) in WW1. He was killed on the 6th of Sep 1917 and is named on the Tyne Cot memorial.

I have James's MIC, Medal Roll, CWGC information and the 1901 and 1911 census for him but not a lot else.

One thing I'm struggling with is his mothers maiden name and place of birth. She was called Mary Ann and was born about 1893, she was married to James Carruthers (born 1870 in Gateshead) and they had 8 children but I don't know anything else about her.

As well as all of this I found a post on a WW1 forum from someone called Derek who had also found he was a relation and has a photo of James with his bike. I'd love to get a copy of the photo but Derek seems to have left the forum and isn't responding to emails.

I'm hoping someone on here may be able to find either the photo somewhere or another connection to Derek (maybe he's on here?).

Thanks for the help,

Michael
Dale (Newcastle Upon Tyne), Beck, English, Hall, Harrison, Stephenson (all from the North Shields, South Shields area), Woodger (from the Newcastle and Liss areas)

Offline JJen

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Re: James Robert CARRUTHERS, born 1892 in Gateshead
« Reply #1 on: Monday 20 March 17 15:09 GMT (UK) »
Hi,

Would this be James' Birth? -

James Robert Carruthers
q3 1891, Gateshead
Vol 10a Page 921

Mother's maiden name - Bagg

JJ

Offline Shiny1

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Re: James Robert CARRUTHERS, born 1892 in Gateshead
« Reply #2 on: Monday 20 March 17 15:12 GMT (UK) »
That would certainly fit, thanks very much.

Michael
Dale (Newcastle Upon Tyne), Beck, English, Hall, Harrison, Stephenson (all from the North Shields, South Shields area), Woodger (from the Newcastle and Liss areas)

Offline JJen

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Re: James Robert CARRUTHERS, born 1892 in Gateshead
« Reply #3 on: Monday 20 March 17 15:18 GMT (UK) »
Can't see a Bagg/Carruthers marriage, however there is a marriage of  James Carruthers -
q4 1889 Newcastle upon Tyne
Vol 10b Page 161

On the same page is Mary Ann Barber.

Perhaps Mary Ann was married before.

JJ


Offline JJen

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Re: James Robert CARRUTHERS, born 1892 in Gateshead
« Reply #4 on: Monday 20 March 17 15:23 GMT (UK) »
Did James have sisters Louisa born 1900 and Ellen born 1897? If so then on the birth records the mother's maiden name is Barber  ???

Having looked at the birth records for James Robert's other sibling it would appear that the mother's maiden name Bagg and Barber are used.

JJ

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Re: James Robert CARRUTHERS, born 1892 in Gateshead
« Reply #5 on: Monday 20 March 17 15:46 GMT (UK) »
This would appear to be Mary Ann on the 1881 -

Robert Bagg   43
Mary Ann Bagg   28
Mary Ann Bagg   8 b. Newcastle, Northumberland
Ellen Race Bagg   3

RG11 Piece 5012 Folio 106 Page 42

The above Mary Ann's birth record is Mary Ann Barber
Ellen Race Bagg (Eleanor Race Bagg) birth record shows her mother's maiden name as Barber.

Therefore Mary Ann ( married to James Carruthers used the name Bagg (her mother's 'married' name) and Barber (her birth name) when registering her children's birth.

JJ

Offline Shiny1

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Re: James Robert CARRUTHERS, born 1892 in Gateshead
« Reply #6 on: Monday 20 March 17 16:14 GMT (UK) »
Thanks again for the help everyone,

Did James have sisters Louisa born 1900 and Ellen born 1897? If so then on the birth records the mother's maiden name is Barber  ???

Having looked at the birth records for James Robert's other sibling it would appear that the mother's maiden name Bagg and Barber are used.

JJ

Yes he did have those two sisters. I did find him named on someones family tree on Ancestry that has all of his siblings described as half brothers and sisters.

If that tree is correct it also means that his mother was just 16 when she had her first daughter (who happens to be my great grandmother) in December 1889. That could perhaps go some way to explain why she used her mothers married name until she was a bit older?

Michael
Dale (Newcastle Upon Tyne), Beck, English, Hall, Harrison, Stephenson (all from the North Shields, South Shields area), Woodger (from the Newcastle and Liss areas)

Online Tickettyboo

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Re: James Robert CARRUTHERS, born 1892 in Gateshead
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 25 March 17 09:02 GMT (UK) »

Free BMD gives a marriage of
Robert William Bagg to Mary Jane Barber Q3 1875, Newcastle

So your Mary Ann was only about 2 when her Mam married, she would probably have been known as Mary Ann Bagg as she grew up, but may have been aware that her birth was registered as Barber.

As for the Carruthers children's birth registrations and the two different MMNs used, it all depends on who is giving the information.
If it was Mary Ann herself, she may have used her birth surname, her husband or another person may just not have thought/known to do that and gave the name by which she had been known before her marriage. Not necessarily fibbing as such, just didn't think about it.

Unfortunately in order to prove that theory one way or the other you'd have to buy the certs for all the children to see who registered the births - which would be really expensive and the theory may not even be right :-)



Yes he did have those two sisters. I did find him named on someones family tree on Ancestry that has all of his siblings described as half brothers and sisters.

If that tree is correct it also means that his mother was just 16 when she had her first daughter (who happens to be my great grandmother) in December 1889. That could perhaps go some way to explain why she used her mothers married name until she was a bit older?

Michael

Offline Shiny1

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Re: James Robert CARRUTHERS, born 1892 in Gateshead
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 25 March 17 13:31 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the help Boo, I haven't looked at her family yet as I didn't have a maiden name for her so I'll have to get that added on.

As you say, it could get a bit pricey getting all the certificates.

Michael
Dale (Newcastle Upon Tyne), Beck, English, Hall, Harrison, Stephenson (all from the North Shields, South Shields area), Woodger (from the Newcastle and Liss areas)