catherine smith

[heywood]

On Catherine Smith's marriage to Robert Brightman, her father George's occupation is given as a Joiner.
The 1851 census George Smith is a Bricklayer.

There is a marriage in 1864 for a Catherine Smith, 20 yrs to Richard Edwards. Her father is George, a Bricklayer.

[cathieee]

hi again, well im going by the marriage cert, it says father - george smith, so that makes sense, she s catherine smith, so now i looked at census, there were 2 george smiths with daughters born 1840/45, the first i saw was george married to ann mary smith, but theu re catherine was still living with them unmarried in the 1871 census, so that cant be mine as she married in 1863

so the only other george smith was the one married to sarah with the 4 daughters sarah 1837, ellen 1841, catherine 1844 and elizabeth 1849, this is the 1851 census, but theres no george and sarah together in the 1861 census, so im presuming one or both of them died between that time, there is nt a george or a sarah even on they re own with a daughter elizabeth in the 1861 census which would lead me to believe that sarah must have definitely died, ( would a father have carried on caring for 4 daughters of such young age in those days ? or would family members have taken them in ?, someone earlier did say about a connection with one of the witnesses at catherines wedding ? )

also i cant find robert brightman in the 1861 census, he would have been 17/8 old enough to be at sea, but cant find him on any registers for then,yet there s loads of ship crew lists of him from 1867 onwards

yet again any help most welcome    

[cathieee]

hi robert brightman is definitely my great x2 grandfather, his daughter louisa brightman married james hooligan and they are the parents of my grandfather thomas hooligan born 1898 liverpool, that much i know is true, so where is my catherine smith on the census s then ?? confusing

[rosie99]

As heywood has found Catherine in 1851 with the Dansbury/Dewsbury's you wont find her with George Smith 

Hello,

1851 2186/599/12

Charles Dansbury 29 yrs
Anne Dansbury   30 yrs
Catherine Dansbury 7 yrs

All born Liverpool and it looks as though he is a Potter rather than a Porter so doesn't all fit. 

Heywood

[suzard]

Catherine is a bit of a puzzle.
It doesn't look like she is the catherine with parents George (occ Bricklayer) and Sarah - it seems their daughter married Richard Edwards in 1864

Catherine was with Charles Dewsbury & Ann in 1861 (and 1871 as Catherine Brightman with husband Robert) Charles and Ann Dewsbury are listed as her parents in both census

1851 Catherine is entered as Catherine Dewsbury (transcribed as Dansbury) with parents Charles (Charles has an initial before Charles -in 1841 he is what looks like Kane Charles Dewbury) & Ann Dewsbury
Often a child's name is entered as the same as the head of the household even if they are a step child

At the marriage of Catherine Smith & Robert Brightman the witnesses were Thomas Sumners and Mary Ellen Shiels
Thomas Sumners was (I think) the nephew of Charles Dewbury - Charles' sister Margaret Chapman Dewsbury married Matthias Sumners and had a son Thomas Sumners (possibly the witness at the marriage
I think the other witness was Mary Ellen 9b Liverpool)who was married to George Shiels (b Ireland)
I am looking for their marriage to find Mary Ellen's maiden name

It may be that Ann Dewsbury was previously married to George Smith (occ Joiner) -or it is also a possibility that Ann was unmarried when she had Catherine - and maybe her father's name was other than Smith -and Catherine had never been told.

If a marriage could be found of Kane? Charles Dewsbury to Ann maybe that would help

I'll keep looking

also the marriage of George Shiels to Mary Ellen would help -so far they are elusive

Suz

[heywood]

I do not think that the George and Sarah family are the correct family.

This is a possible candidate for Sarah in 1871 3810/108/10
71 Richmond Fair, Everton

Ellen Smith head  widow 28 yrs Charwoman b Liverpool
George H Smith   1 yr son
Sarah Smith 62 yrs mother

I know it says Ellen is a widow but there is a George Henry Smith with no mother's maiden name in the indexes.

[heywood]

also the marriage of George Shiels to Mary Ellen would help -so far they are elusive


There is a marriage September 1854 Liverpool vol 8b pg 280

George Shiels and Mary Ellen Carroll are on the same page.

Added
Confirmed by Lancashire BMD but marriage not online.

[heywood]

Found the Shiels marriage on a published tree - no clues there 

[cathieee]

thanks for all the help, but why is catherines fathers name down as george smith on marriage cert ??, surely in those days if a child was born either out of wedlock or adopted at an early age she would put down the name of the man she knew as a father, i thought things like that were nt spoken about to children then

i ll keep looking myself also