Author Topic: Deceased father of the bride on marriage certificate  (Read 3000 times)

Online trish1120

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 28,216
  • Happy me
    • View Profile
Re: Deceased father of the bride on marriage certificate
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 13 April 17 13:53 BST (UK) »
Was you John Hayes born c 1846, Hope, Flintshire?

If so the Marriage Witness may have been a step brother;

1861 Census
Hope, Flintshire
Edward Jones, 45
Frances Jones, 40
John HEYES, 15, Stepson******
Elizabeth Heyes, Stepdaug, 12
Robert JONES, 11, Son, Son of Head****
John Jones, 9
Frances Jones, 3
George Jones, 1

Death Reg Gro Index;
HAYES, EDWARD age 31*******     
GRO Reference: 1849  S Quarter in WREXHAM  Volume 27  Page 202

Marriage Reg FreeBMD
Dec 1842 Wrexham,  27 426
Edward HAYES and Frances GRIFFITHS on same page

Birth Regs Gro Index;
HAYES, JOHN, Mothers maiden name     GRIFFITHS ****
GRO Reference: 1846  S Quarter in WREXHAM  Volume 27  Page 248
HAYES, ELIZABETH, Mothers maiden name     GRIFFITHS ****
GRO Reference: 1849  M Quarter in WREXHAM  Volume 27  Page 272

All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)

Online trish1120

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 28,216
  • Happy me
    • View Profile
Re: Deceased father of the bride on marriage certificate
« Reply #19 on: Thursday 13 April 17 14:03 BST (UK) »
1851 in Hope;
Frances Hayes, 33, Head, Widow, Pauper, born Hope
Mary Hayes, 7
JOHN Hayes, 4
Elizabeth Hayes, 2

Marriage Reg;
Dec 1856, Gt. Boughton, 8a 498
Frances HAYES and Edward JONES on same page

Trish :)
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)

Online trish1120

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 28,216
  • Happy me
    • View Profile
Re: Deceased father of the bride on marriage certificate
« Reply #20 on: Thursday 13 April 17 14:28 BST (UK) »
Familysearch.Org;
Name Edward Hayes
Event Type Marriage Banns
Event Date 10 Mar 1844
Event Place Hope, Flintshire, Wales
Spouse's Name   Frances Griffiths

Marriage took place 18 April

F/S has a EDWARD Hayes baptism: 4 April 1819. Hope, Flintshire


Possible 1841 Census in Northop, Flintshire;
Eward Hayes, 20, Painter

All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)

Offline chris_49

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,327
  • Unknown Father - swiving then vanishing since 1750
    • View Profile
Re: Deceased father of the bride on marriage certificate
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 13 April 17 16:04 BST (UK) »
I'm surprised that anybody is surprised that there might be two unrelated Robert Joneses on a document from Wales, especially in the C19th.

People seem to think the name is about as frequent as Smith is in England. It is much, much commoner than that and was more so back then before immigration from England and elsewhere. I'll try to find some stats.

I was at school with hordes of Jones (and Williams and Davies) and in one primary class there were two boys both called John Edward Jones who each had to be assigned a number!

Skelcey (Skelsey Skelcy Skeley Shelsey Kelcy Skelcher) - Warks, Yorks, Lancs <br />Hancox - Warks<br />Green - Warks<br />Draper - Warks<br />Lynes - Warks<br />Hudson - Warks<br />Morris - Denbs Mont Salop <br />Davies - Cheshire, North Wales<br />Fellowes - Cheshire, Denbighshire<br />Owens - Cheshire/North Wales<br />Hicks - Cornwall<br />Lloyd and Jones (Mont)<br />Rhys/Rees (Mont)


Online trish1120

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 28,216
  • Happy me
    • View Profile
Re: Deceased father of the bride on marriage certificate
« Reply #22 on: Friday 14 April 17 15:41 BST (UK) »
Was what I posted what you have Wrexthedragon.?
A couple of Trees I looked at havent made the connection that Frances was mn Grifffiths, then Hayes and lastly Jones.

Trish :)
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)

Offline Wrexthedragon

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Deceased father of the bride on marriage certificate
« Reply #23 on: Friday 14 April 17 16:02 BST (UK) »
Hi Trish you've been busy! Yes I have what you've posted all with the exception of the last mention of Eward Hayes in the 1841 census. I think the entry I want is In Leeswood and the entries have been lost!
Regarding Robert Jones being the step-brother it's a very good possibility and I was so focused on the brides father I hadn't considered it! Thank you very much for your replies 😀

Online trish1120

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 28,216
  • Happy me
    • View Profile
Re: Deceased father of the bride on marriage certificate
« Reply #24 on: Friday 14 April 17 16:47 BST (UK) »
Your welcome :)
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)

Offline iolaus

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,150
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Deceased father of the bride on marriage certificate
« Reply #25 on: Friday 14 April 17 19:51 BST (UK) »
And "deceased" fathers may not really be dead or even ever have existed. I have several examples where an illegitimate bride or groom has made up a father's name and said they wee deceased. Or more likely, that is what their mother told them at an early age to explain the absence of a father and they believed it was the truth.
Also I have come across a case where the father deserted the family and he was recorded as deceased on his child's marriage record but was actually still alive, presumably he had severed all ties with the family and they thought he had died.

In one of my cases I'd not sure if my great. great grandfather lied or the person recording his father misunderstood (and wasn't corrected) - he was illegimate - his father being named on his baptism as Thomas Williams - he's on his son's marriage certificate - with the correct occupation as Thomas HisSurname (ie mothers maiden name) - I'm envisaging him being asked what his father's name was, him saying (correctly) Thomas - and the person recording assuming the surnames were the same

Offline EeyoreBlue

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 217
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Deceased father of the bride on marriage certificate
« Reply #26 on: Thursday 20 April 17 14:53 BST (UK) »

[/quote]In one of my cases I'd not sure if my great. great grandfather lied or the person recording his father misunderstood (and wasn't corrected) - he was illegimate - his father being named on his baptism as Thomas Williams - he's on his son's marriage certificate - with the correct occupation as Thomas HisSurname (ie mothers maiden name) - I'm envisaging him being asked what his father's name was, him saying (correctly) Thomas - and the person recording assuming the surnames were the same
[/quote]

I had very similar which took me down a dead end route for years.  On Marriage Certificate, father was named as George Burns, when in actual fact, the groom was illegitimate, his mother's husband (married when he was around 4 years old) was named George Bott.  I assume that he was asked his father's name and said George, and the registrar (or vicar) assumed it was George Burns.  I don't believe, or will never really know, there was any intention to mislead, because all through life, and on censuses etc, he was referred to as Step Son.
Marshall (Northumberland)
Burns (Scotland, Durham, Northumberland)
Chilton (Northumberland, Cumbria, Durham)
Dixon (Northumberland)
Brown (Northumberland, Cumbria)
Tallentire & variants (Durham)
Phillips (Briton Ferry, Wales)
Seaton (Cumbria)
Moffat (Cumbria)
Garstang (Cumbria, Lancashire)