Telfer/Rodgers in Forfar

[JayBeth]

My GG Grandfather, William Telfer married Mary Rodgers in Edinburgh in 1853. She was from Forfar and after much movement around the UK they settled in Forfar in the late 1870's. They first appear in the 1881 Census. However, i cannot find the name of the person she gave as her father on her marriage certificate: Daniel Rodgers, a weaver in Forfar. Anyone have any info on Rodgers.

[Forfarian]

Hi JayBeth, and welcome to RootsChat.

In order to help you, we need to know everything you know about William and Mary Telfer.

What were the names of their children, in order of birth?
Where were they in the 1861, 1871, 1891, 1901 and 1911 census?

I see from the index at Scotland's People (SP) that Mary was listed as aged 46 in 1881. If this is accurate she would have been born in 1834 or 1835. However I cannot find her in the 1841 or 1851 census. I wonder if she could have been illegitimate and listed under her mother's surname, or even a stepfather's surname?

Also, it could be that Daniel is listed as Donald, because these names are sometimes use interchangeably.

If I were you I would look for her death certificate. If she died in Scotland, this should tell you the full name of her mother, and any later surnames. To do this go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and search for a death of Mary Telfer between 1881 and say 1940, aged at least 45 years. Make a note of the year, reference and RD name (RD stands for 'Registration District') of each one. Then repeat the search using r*g*r* as the surname, and see if any of the details match the list of Mary Telfers. If they do, invest in a few credits and view the death certificate.

[JayBeth]

William Telfer was in the army and stationed at Edinburgh Castle when he met and married Mary Rodgers  in February 1853. They had two of their children in Edinburgh: Agnes in 1853 and William in 1857.
At some point William's regiment, 79th Regiment of Foot (Cameron Highlanders) was posted south. Their next two children (so far found) were born in Erith, Kent: Samuel in 1862 and Mary 1867. William left the army and the family moved to Oxford where William joined the Oxfordshire Militia. Margaret was born in Oxford in 1869 and John in 1873.
Agnes and William both married in Oxford in the 1870's. William later relocated with his family to London. The remaining members relocated to Forfar where they appear in the 1881 census. By then Agnes had a child and had been widowed. Her son, Albert, lived with his grandparents and Agnes elsewhere in Forfar as a housekeeper.
Mary Rodgers Telfer died in 1900 in Dundee. Her father's name is given as Thomas on this certificate though he is still a Linen Weaver and her mother is Mary Cable. Both are deceased.

As William Telfer was born in Linlithgow, his father ditto and his grandfather in Northumberland I dont expect to find Telfers in Forfar. It is the Rodgers/Cable connection i have been looking for.

I will try your suggestion re using asterisks in the search boxes at ScotlandsPeople. And thanks for the suggestion re Donald/Danial.

[JayBeth]

Hi Forfarian,
As you made some useful suggestion in your reply I am going to pick your brain a wee bit here.

The above John Telfer (John Alfred Telfer) was born in Oxford and grew up in Forfar. He moved to Springfield near Cupar in Fife at some point as he met and married Flora Campbell Duncan there in 1894. He can be traced through the births and deaths of his children and in the 1901 census. He last appears in 1906 registering the death of his youngest child, Jemima Ramage Telfer in 1906.
I cant find the family in the 1911 census though they can all be found in later years through their own marriages and the births of their children (one being my mother). All that is except for John Alfred Telfer.

His children marry between 1919 and 1925 and all give him as their father. All assign various occupations to him and none declares him deceased. However, his 'widow' remarried in 1922.

Any ideas as to where else i can look. Prisons? Asylums? Huge brick wall for me.

Thanks JayBeth

[Forfarian]

Mary Rodgers Telfer died in 1900 in Dundee.

(In Scotland a married woman is named as xxx yyy or zzz in legal documents, where xxx is her given name(s), yyy is her maiden surname and zzz is her husband's surname. So she would be named as Mary Rodgers or Telfer, not as Mary Rodgers Telfer.)

Her father's name is given as Thomas on this certificate though he is still a Linen Weaver and her mother is Mary Cable. Both are deceased.

There is a family in Forfar in 1841 consisting of Thomas Rodger, 45, hand loom weaver; James Rodger, 15, apprentice flesher; William Rodger, 13, apprentice flesher; and Mary Rodger, 13. This Mary would have been born in 1827/1828 if her age is accurate.

In 1861 William Telfer, 29, private, 43rd Regiment, born Scotland, is listed at Circular Redoubt, Eastbourne, and on the same page but not next to him is Mary Telfer, 26, soldier's wife, born Scotland. This puts her date of birth as 1834 or 1835.

In 1871 she is listed as aged 40, which puts her date of birth at 1830 or 1831.

In 1881 she is 46, which matches her age in 1861 and puts her date of birth in 1834 or 1835.

In 1891 the only Mary Telfer in Angus is aged 49, and in the same household are Janet Telfer, 21 and John Telfer, 17. This puts her date of birth as 1841 or 1842, which has to be wrong because she could not have married in 1853 if she was born in 1841 or 1842. (Legally, she could have married at 12, but the likelihood that she actually did so is negligible.)

The death index at Scotland's People says she was aged 55 when she died. This would put her date of birth in 1844 or 1845, and it is clearly impossible for her to have married in 1853.

So we have a woman who either had no idea how old she was, or who habitually lied about how old she was.

I note that the 1841 census says that Thomas Rodger was 45, which if correct gives a birth date between 1791 and 1796. I also note the death in Forfar in 1875 of Thomas Rodger, aged 81. If I were you I would want to take a look at that death certificate to see if his wife's name was Mary Cable.

It looks from the 1871 census index as if in the same household in Forfar as Thomas Rodger, aged 77, is a Jessie Rodger, aged 44. I note with interest the marriage of Thomas Rodger to Janet McDonald in Forfar in 1860. The names Janet and Jessie are interchangeable. Did your Mary's father perhaps remarry?

Another avenue you could explore would be to look for marriage and death certificates of James Rodger and William Rodger, the two apprentice fleshers (i.e. butchers) in the 1841 census.

I note from the index that on the page before the listing of Thomas and Jessie in 1871 there are a James, aged 33. Could this be Thomas' son? On the same page is Margaret, 39. A James Rodger married a Margaret Wilson in Forfar in 1860. If he was a butcher and his mother was Mary Cable, that would be very strong evidence for the parentage of your Mary Rodgers.

[JayBeth]

Thanks Forfarian,
I used Mary Rodgers Telfer as a marker for you to indicate that i was referring to the mother, Mary Rodgers and not the daughter, Mary Telfer. I am Scottish, not American.

I have thought about the Thomas Rodgers in the 1841 census but have tended towards 'Daniel' as this is first-hand information from Mary herself. However, your suggestions re using Thomas Rodgers death certificate to rule out is useful. Especially as i cant find a Daniel!

Yes, Mary and William do seem to play fast and loose with their ages. After Mary's death in 1900, William is living in Dunde with a much younger woman and his age drops to 63. Wonder who he was trying to impress! William died in 1905 and his daughter provided the registration information giving his age as 75. This is consistent with his birth in 1829.

Remarriage is also a thought. I'll explore where that angle and see where that takes me.

Thanks for all your help. It's always good to get a fresh pair of eyes on things.

JayBeth