Author Topic: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870  (Read 1396 times)

Offline drmjgould

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I cannot find any details of this member of my direct pedigree of her death [or remarriage]. She was born in Attleborough, Norfolk in 1840. She married George Hawes in Tibenham on 17 Sep 1861 & had her third known child [Edgar Francis] on 17 Mar 1865 in Tibenham. George Hawes married Sarah Anne Sivell/Civil/Sivel [probably Margaret's sister] on 23 Feb 1870 in South Hackney, Middlesex. George & Sarah Anne then lived in Shoreditch & later on in Hackney. Between 17 Mar 1865 & 23 Feb 1870 Margaret most probably died [or unlikely remarried] & I cannot find any records relating either of these possibilities - if anyone is able to HELP ME I would be very, very grateful!

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Offline CaroleW

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Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
« Reply #1 on: Friday 14 April 17 23:56 BST (UK) »
Welcome to Rootschat

George is shown as a widower on the 1870 marriage cert but I can't see an obvious death for Margaret between 1865-1870
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Offline CaroleW

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Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 15 April 17 00:09 BST (UK) »
There was a 4th child born

William Swell (?? Sivell) Hawes  mmn     Sivell     
June qtr 1868 Shoreditch 1C  Page 202


EDIT
If a 4th child was born Shoreditch and was Margaret's son it suggests Margaret died in Middlesex - not Norfolk

Always the possibility he was the son of George & Sarah before they married.

Have you confirmed that Edgar was Margaret's son?
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Offline drmjgould

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Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 15 April 17 00:42 BST (UK) »
Hi Carole, Thanks for your thoughts in your posts. Swell is commonly [I think] transcribed when it is actually Sivell. The other children of George & Margaret are named George & Georgiana [twins] born 12 June 1862. It may well be that you are right, although none of their 1st three children have a family middle name, but this son may be the one who breaks that prior pattern. George & Sarah Anne had a child called George Herbert Hawes born 7 Dec 1875 in Shoreditch. Do you know of any info that might prove this is the 4th child of George & Margaret, or should I order his birth cert from GRO? Many thanks for this help, kind regards, Michael

Offline CaroleW

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Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 15 April 17 00:53 BST (UK) »
Strange - in 1871 there are only 2 children with George & Sarah - both b Norfolk.  No deaths for Georgiana or William so where were they?

George 8
Edgar 6

No death for George jnr between 1871 - 1875 so I wonder why they would name another son George?
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Offline drmjgould

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Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 15 April 17 00:54 BST (UK) »
Hi again, Edgar's England, Select Births & Christenings, 1538-1975 entry FHL film no. 2299613 showed parents were George & Margaret Hawes and Christening was on 25 Apr 1865 at Wymondham, Norfolk. Thanks again, Michael

Offline drmjgould

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Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 15 April 17 01:03 BST (UK) »
I cannot find where Georgiana was in 1871, but she was staying with her uncle Leonard Sivell [& wife] in Bethnal Green in 1881 Census [piece 412, folio 103, page 19]

Offline CaroleW

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Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 15 April 17 01:07 BST (UK) »
There were no twins - Georgiana Hawes Sept qtr 1862 - mmn was Sivell - page number 217

George Hawes and Walter Hawes - same qtr page number 220 were twins - mmn Sage

So what is strange is that Georgiana becomes George - male in 1871.  GRO index confirms christian name was Georgiana - not George
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Offline drmjgould

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Re: Margaret Hawes [nee Sivell/Civil/Sivel] death Tibenham/East London 1865-1870
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 15 April 17 01:09 BST (UK) »
I cannot find any info on George [b 1862] in 1881 & 1891 English Censuses or of his death between 1871 & 1875, but I agree with your thoughts about why George Herbert was named thus