John Hannell IRVIN b. circa 1780

[SelDen]

Hello again

Just taking a step backwards, do you have the marriage of Barbara Steel Irvin & Ralph Brady Simpson?

I had a look on www.freebmd.org.uk but could not see it there. Did it take place before civil registration started in July 1837? That would be a pity as church entries prior to this time do not give the fathers' names, however the names of the witnesses could be helpful.

Added: GENUKI says Ralph Simpson married Barbara Irving 27 March 1836 in Earsdon - hopefully you will be able to find the image in the Bishop's Transcripts on www.familysearch.org.uk if you do not already have this. Note yet another variant (I should have thought of that one given the fame of Henry Irving).

I see Barbara & Ralph have a 2 year old son William in the 1841 census (did he die? as there is a baptism for a later William) which suggests a marriage of around 1838/9 but it could of course have been earlier.

Also, I see Barbara Steel Simpson died in New Zealand in 1891 aged 76. Do you have the death certificate (or rather, the historical print out as this has more information), which according to the Department of Internal Affair's website should have the following information (as well as a great deal else which makes me somewhat green with envy):

After 1875 - Registration of Births and Deaths Act 1875 (dated 12 October 1875)

Name and Surname of father
Name and if known maiden surname of mother
Rank or profession or occupation of father

Where born
How long in New Zealand

Where married
At what age married

https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Home/

[starsista]

Hi

Thanks for your thoughts on this particular mystery.  Any ideas are appreciated.

I have got back into researching this family recently when one of the family researchers decided to put together a book on the family who emigrated to New Zealand.  We believe it is also a great idea to know from whence they came.  I was searching in the Bishops Transcripts online for a marriage of John and Jane and have found nothing for 1801.  I was originally looking for South Shields and St Hilda's, however 'South Shields - St Hilda' indices begin in 1866 whereas I found the images under 'South Shields' have 'In the Chapelry of St Hilda South Shields' at the top of the pages so am searching in there at the moment.  Familysearch have the marriage occurring on 12 July 1801 with another on 21 November 1801, so I am hoping to find these pages.  I had thought maybe the earlier one could be Banns and the latter the Marriage.  Time will tell.  Marriages may be in another place in the file.  I have gone through burials and baptisms for 1800, 1801 and now 1802.  I'll get back to the search after dinner.

Thanks again
Jeni

Jeni

[SelDen]

Hi Jeni

Just did a brain dump in earlier posts - you have probably gone down those paths already. However, I would get the NZ historical print out for Barbara's death if you or your fellow researchers do not already have it, though, as it may give her mother's maiden name, if the family knew it.

www.durhamrecordsonline.com (a pay site but modest fees) has a transcript of the 1836 marriage of Barbara Irving & Ralph Simpson, in case you do not already have it.

I noticed the John (age 60) & Jane (age 59) Irvin in Ropery Bank, North Shields in the 1841 census with a 14 year old Jane. All born in county (Northumberland) & John was a waterman. Have you eliminated this couple?

I also see a John Irvin aged 55 death registered September quarter 1849, Tynemouth reg district, and the death of a John Irvin aged 70 was registered in the June quarter of 1850, also Tynemouth.
ADDED: I used a combination of info from www.freebmd.org.uk and www.gro.gov.uk to find these - you may find other entries of interest. I find the GRO search engine is very clunky so it is easier to identify likely entries using FreeBMD before going to the GRO to get the additional information of the ages.

[SelDen]

A couple more entries that look as if they are relevant to the 1841 census family - just in case it is helpful, even if just for the purposes of elimination.

1851 Census HO107/2409 folio 499 p9
North Shields
Church Stairs
Jane Irvin Head Widow 70 Pauper born Northumberland North Shields

1861 Census RG9/3836 folio 57 p20
North Shields, Church Stairs
Jane Irvin Head Widow 80 Northumberland North Shields
[same household? not clear]
Eleanor Bell Head Married 53 mariner's wife Northumberland Billy? Mill
William J Bell son 16 Grocer's Shopman Northumberland North Shields

[starsista]

Hi

I do have the image for the marriage of Ralph and Barbara.  I also have her birth image and that of a brother, Thomas in 1821.

Barbara and Ralph emigrated to New Zealand on board the Indiana arriving in Lyttelton, New Zealand in November 1858.  They brought with them children: John, b 1841; Ralph Brady jnr, b 1843; Jane, b. c 1848; Andrew, b. 1847; Barbara Ann, b. 1853 and Richard, b. 1855.  They left behind one son, William Hodgson SIMPSON, b. 1839 who we have up to the 1851 England Census and no further information on this young man.  I have the image for William's baptism from the BT.

I have yet to find a marriage image for Ralph and Barbara.  I have searched before for that and whether I couldn't find it, or something else happened, I don't remember now.

Yes, we are very lucky with our printouts here.  Having a copy of the register instead of a transcription is great.  If I had a copy I can no longer find it and have ordered another.  I moved house a few years ago, into a smaller space and much of my genealogy files are packed away still.  The only problem we have with death information is when the informant doesn't always know the correct details, which is a problem everywhere.

I have also found the printouts for births shortly after emigration are sometimes incorrect because the person writing the details couldn't always understand the accent, so we have villages in the UK in the wrong county and have to work out was the village correct, or the county :-)

Your latest message, yes I have noted these people from the 1841 census and will need to see whether or not they are my couple. 

I have checked again and have done a transcription of the image of Ralph and Barbara's marriage, and it is Banns
'Ralph Simpson of this parish and Barbara Irving of this parish were married in this church by Banns with consent of [no name here] this twenty seventh day of March in the year one thousand eight hundred and thirty six by me Henry Warkman, Minis. of Earsdon
This marriage was solemnized between us Ralph Brady Simpson, Barbara Irving
In the presence of Thomas M. Pack, Clement Kell'

Oh and thank you for the census notes on Jan IRVIN, I will check those out more, I did have the one with the the BELL mother and son, could be same household although not sure.

Thanks for your help.
Jeni

[starsista]

Correction, Jane IRVIN, not Jan.

[SelDen]

I forgot to mention www.freereg.org.uk - another free site. For example, it has an Earsdon marriage in 1837 of a John H Irvin to Sarah Drummond, groom's father John H Irvin, occupation Master Mariner.

There may be other entries which help narrow your trawl through the BTs.

[Millmoor]

The burial for  the John Irvin who died in 1850 age 70 would appear to be on Durham Records Online. Abode given as Duk Street.

The parish records for South Shields St Hilda would appear to have been digitised (search Family Search Records for South Shields and click on church records - the camera icons show what has been digitised). They can only be viewed, however, in a Familysearch centre.

William

[starsista]

Thank you, William, I will check those out in the morning.

Jeni