Author Topic: Desperately seeking Sarah (or Sadie) DOUGLAS b 1900/1  (Read 4168 times)

Offline Flemming

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Re: Desperately seeking Sarah (or Sadie) DOUGLAS b 1900/1
« Reply #9 on: Monday 24 April 17 21:13 BST (UK) »
Dear Ray

I’m sorry that you have taken my post as personal insult of yours and other members’ capabilities as researchers. That was not the intention. The matter is a sensitive one which is why I have provided limited information. Whilst I respect RootsChat’s membership unreservedly, I would hope they, in return, will respect decisions of fellow members not to post all personal information.

The question I asked in the first post was: ‘…if anyone has a Sarah or Sadie DOUGLAS(S) in their family who might fit the limited description we have of her, or perhaps know of a child that may have been kept secret for much of her life.’

I did not request that the membership repeat any research precisely so they did not waste their time covering ground that has been covered over decades.

The reply from TerriG has been very helpful and I thank her for that.

Given that your views may be reflective of other members, however, might I ask the moderator to remove this post completely so that it doesn’t cause any further offence?

Flemming

Moderator comment: please note that previous wording referred to in this post has been deleted.

Offline [Ray]

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Do you have Sarah (or Sadie) DOUGLAS b 1900/1 in your family
« Reply #10 on: Monday 24 April 17 21:48 BST (UK) »
Hi Flemming

Welcome to RootsChat, apologies for missing that earlier.

Have removed the content from this post, and asked mods to remove the content from the other as content unnecessary.

Contents of Rootschat' posts get thrown onto the web automatically and quite quickly, so, ensure that the content is searchable.
Frequently, researchers arrive at Rootschat because they have spotted interesting/relevant content.


Still willing to help, in whatever way.


Ray
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Offline TerriG

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Re: Desperately seeking Sarah (or Sadie) DOUGLAS b 1900/1
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 09:03 BST (UK) »
I don't want to take sides in this discussion, but would like to point out that, when posting a topic (especially if it's your first time) it can be difficult to get your objectives across clearly without waffling on and potentially confusing the reader.

Flemming, I hope your first experience of Rootschat will not deter you from posting again, as we do want to help.
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Offline spades

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Re: Desperately seeking Sarah (or Sadie) DOUGLAS b 1900/1
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 11:53 BST (UK) »
Hi Flemming, and a belated welcome to RootsChat,

Even a quick read of your first post above made it clear that you were providing all the information you could without over-reaching your brief.

Generally, RootsChatters are polite and tolerant and very willing to assist in any way.
 
Good luck with your future research.

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Offline dawnsh

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Re: Desperately seeking Sarah (or Sadie) DOUGLAS b 1900/1
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 12:44 BST (UK) »
This topic has been edited for content but to completely remove certain posts will make the whole thing look like a swiss cheese: ie full of holes.

The topic however, will not will completely deleted as the results of internet searches frequently bring people to Rootschat, often many years after the original posting.

In the fullness of time, another chatter maybe able to throw light on flemming's quest.
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Offline Annette7

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Re: Desperately seeking Sarah (or Sadie) DOUGLAS b 1900/1
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 13:18 BST (UK) »
My gut instinct here is that Sarah/Sadie Douglas was not a Douglas by birth.   Clearly, there is not a marriage between a Bernard Douglas and a Sarah, plus son Bernard's birth not registered.   At the time of sons birth she used the name Douglas with 'husband' Bernard Douglas, real or otherwise, no doubt for the sake of propriety whilst in the maternity hospital.

The father of her child may have been surnamed Douglas but maybe not a Bernard.   Who can say? 

I just feel her maiden name was not Douglas at all hence the difficulty in pinpointing who she was.   I really don't see anyway out of this dilemma with the scant details known.   

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Offline CaroleW

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Re: Desperately seeking Sarah (or Sadie) DOUGLAS b 1900/1
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 25 April 17 16:32 BST (UK) »
Hi Flemming and welcome from me too

On the birth cert hospital record - I am guessing it doesn't show Sarah as nee Douglas - just as Sarah Douglas which would be the norm in hospital records.

Reading the background etc, you really have put a lot of time and effort into your research so it must be quite frustrating for you to be no further advanced.

I am tending to think that the fathers name was a "Red herring"  and that Sarah may have given a false name as suggested in an earlier reply. 

None of which helps you one bit - sadly :(

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Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Desperately seeking Sarah (or Sadie) DOUGLAS b 1900/1
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 26 April 17 01:15 BST (UK) »

You have done a lot of research into the origins of the child born 1926. The outcome of your research seems to be that the only information you have is the hospital record, and any rumours, suggestions etc. are not confirmed.

Can you please list all the information ( not clinical details) on the hospital record. It should have dates places, names........etc.

Offline Flemming

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Re: Desperately seeking Sarah (or Sadie) DOUGLAS b 1900/1
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 26 April 17 21:10 BST (UK) »
‘…scant details’, ‘Red herring(s)’ and ‘rumours…not confirmed’ are fair words to describe what we have so far, along with research to rule many Sarahs out, rather than rule just one of them in.

As for the hospital record, squeezed dry like a tiny sponge, it shows: Sarah Douglas; age 25; address [no.] Finsbury Avenue, Walker; husband’s name Bernard (husbands’ surnames were not recorded presumably on the assumption it was the same as the mother’s); and father’s occupation traveller (could be commercial or gypsy). There is no further personal information other than DOB of baby.

The husband

A commercial traveller would be a handy occupation to explain why your (potentially fictitious) husband doesn’t visit you in hospital (she was there for 21 days with no medical complications recorded).

For the option of a gypsy traveller, Romany/traveller researchers advise that couples were more likely to be married than not, and that they would not have given up their child (even if it was illegitimate - they are very strong on this point). The situation may be different if the father was a gypsy and Sarah was a ‘gorger’. They also suggest that Bernard is not a common English/Scottish traveller name and more likely to be Irish.

With specific reference to the Hoppings theory (i.e. the ‘husband’ working there), the Showmen’s Guild has been unable to help although the National Fairground and Circus Archive at Sheffield University has yet to be investigated.

As an aside, the hospital record has mothers without husbands (one girl is just 16, another comes from Elswick Lodge home for unmarried mothers) and the hospital itself was opened for the relief of poor women. It may mean there was less of an imperative for Sarah to fabricate a husband although it doesn’t mean she didn’t.

The address
 
The local council can’t provide tenant details for Finsbury Avenue although electoral roll data from FindMyPast have been compiled from autumn 1920 (when the house was first occupied) through to 1931. There is no Sarah/Sadie Douglas(s) listed in these years although women under 30 couldn’t vote until 1928. This may mean her age on the hospital record is correct or that she didn’t register/wasn’t eligible to vote.

We’ve been lucky enough to speak with someone who’s had family ties with the house since the 1920s and have worked on their family tree. Whilst the name Douglas(s) does feature, there’s no obvious match with Sarah. Douglas(s) is quite common in many Newcastle families of the time given the proximity to Scotland. It’s a line of inquiry that continues but is complex for various reasons.

For 1926 specifically, the occupants’ roots have been traced back to 1800 but no links found to Sarah. The wife was a cleaner for the NE Railway and member of the Union in 1919 along with two other female cleaners (they stand out amongst the male drivers and guards). A putative theory is that she worked with Sarah and offered her a room, possibly after the latter became pregnant. One of the unconfirmed rumours is that Sarah worked in a bar, perhaps one of the pub-hotels in the area. Maybe Bernard the commercial traveller was a guest who never came back.

The 1921 census

It’s a long wait to see if Sarah materialises in the 1921 census, hence posting on RootsChat to ask if someone has her in their tree. brigidmac suggested looking for an affiliation order against the father and we’re doing this now. In the meantime, we have 21 Scottish Sarahs born 1896 to 1903 to revisit (11 with death records) and probably should widen the net outside of the UK, e.g. into Ireland where DOUGLAS is also a common name.

I hope this clarifies some of the questions, is of some interest to members and might spark a few further ideas.

Thanks for your support.

Flemming