Author Topic: Does anyone know of a connection between Holme Cultram and Gypsies  (Read 685 times)

Offline hiyamarra

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Does anyone know of a connection between Holme Cultram and Gypsies
« on: Sunday 23 April 17 12:56 BST (UK) »
I've been researching my family history for a number of years, and found that 25% of my ancestors belonged to the Traveller/Gypsy community. This has given loads of fun but huge difficulty in following them. Places of baptism doesn't mean the same place as birth, as they often baptised children in favourite churches, or churches close to where they wintered up, or close to markets or fairs they were attending. I've noticed a lot of my ancestors and other Travelling families were baptised at Holme Cultram, but I can't see any particular reason why. I've tried to find any info there is, but nothing crops up. Does anyone know if there was a particular reason for this very high number of Traveller baptisms at Holme Cultram.
Thanks
Holmes, Keenan, McKenzie, Knowles, Berry.

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Online sarah

  • Administrator
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,966
  • RootsChat Co-Founder
    • View Profile
Re: Does anyone know of a connection between Holme Cultram and Gypsies
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 26 April 17 17:28 BST (UK) »
Hello hiyamarra,

I have just moved your post to the travelling people section of RootsChat.

Regards

Sarah
For Help on how to post an Image on RootsChat
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=459330.0

If you have been helped on RootsChat be sure to spread the word!

UK Census info. Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

RootsChat is the busiest, largest free family history forum site in the country. It is completely free to use. Register now.
Also register instantly with Facebook or Twitter (and other social networks). Start your genealogy search now.


Offline hiyamarra

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Does anyone know of a connection between Holme Cultram and Gypsies
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 26 April 17 20:44 BST (UK) »
Thanks Sarah
I thought things were quiet  :)
Holmes, Keenan, McKenzie, Knowles, Berry.

Offline Rena

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,081
  • Crown Copyright: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Does anyone know of a connection between Holme Cultram and Gypsies
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 26 April 17 22:44 BST (UK) »
To the east, there's the gypsy horse fair at Appleby.  Another thought is that travellers historically mended and sold pans, etc.  If you google for Holme Cultram and "Iron mining" you'll have several results.  There's mention of visible rocks and the ore being hammered out of them.  There's also mention of simple bloom forges which I've seen on the TV programme "Time Team" and it seems to me that tavellers would also have that skill.

The link is to a film showing how ancient Britons smelted ore found in rocks to produce copper:-
https://wn.com/prehistoric_copper_smelting_in_a_pit
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline hiyamarra

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Does anyone know of a connection between Holme Cultram and Gypsies
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 26 April 17 22:51 BST (UK) »
Hi
Thanks for your thoughts
My reason for asking, is quite a few of my Travelling ancestors had children baptised there. I have followed my ancestors all over the north of England and can almost plot the routes they followed visiting fairs and markets but I can't see a reason for Home Cultram
McKenzie's/McKinsey's were one of these families
Holmes, Keenan, McKenzie, Knowles, Berry.

Offline Rena

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,081
  • Crown Copyright: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Does anyone know of a connection between Holme Cultram and Gypsies
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 27 April 17 15:41 BST (UK) »
Hi
Thanks for your thoughts
My reason for asking, is quite a few of my Travelling ancestors had children baptised there. I have followed my ancestors all over the north of England and can almost plot the routes they followed visiting fairs and markets but I can't see a reason for Home Cultram
McKenzie's/McKinsey's were one of these families

It's Border Country which means that it was easy to cross over from Scotland and England and there were no mountains to hike over. When travelling you had to calculate walking distance to water and they probably headed for water and a nearby church.  You say you have Scottish ancestors.  Looking at a map - What better place than to have a family gathering of all nationalities in the family.  There's water to drink and fish from, a coal field for fuel to light a fire and several churches.  There's also the Abbey and I'm guessing that there'd be plenty of rabbits to snare for supper.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline hiyamarra

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Does anyone know of a connection between Holme Cultram and Gypsies
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 27 April 17 15:49 BST (UK) »
I've actually studied Drover routes and general Travellers routes, as they didn't just wander aimlessly and Holme Cultram just isn't on any of these routes. I've also researched markets and fairs in the area and nothing ties up, hence my query. I was wondering if there was any religious or superstitious reason for going out of their way for baptisms. Hmmmm
Holmes, Keenan, McKenzie, Knowles, Berry.

Offline Rena

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 3,081
  • Crown Copyright: www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Does anyone know of a connection between Holme Cultram and Gypsies
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 27 April 17 16:20 BST (UK) »
I've actually studied Drover routes and general Travellers routes, as they didn't just wander aimlessly and Holme Cultram just isn't on any of these routes. I've also researched markets and fairs in the area and nothing ties up, hence my query. I was wondering if there was any religious or superstitious reason for going out of their way for baptisms. Hmmmm

I know what you mean - but that's why I initially thought of something they might have used to trade with.  Why buy tin to mend pans, etc. when you can freely collect ore and make it yourself?  Additinally, the Mackenzie lands are on the Scottish west coast (also moving inland towards the east) - so that's the reason I mentioned the family meeting.  Maybe they liked the local vicar - did all churches agree to baptise traveller children?

Have you checked court/assize records for fines, etc? :-

https://esmeraldamac.wordpress.com/category/history-of-cumbria/history-19th-century/
By the nineteenth century, the days of the reivers had passed but we were still a distance from the newly-established ‘police’ in London and Edinburgh. The hue and cry was still technically in force but local inclination to engage had deteriorated to the extent that local parishes, rather than fining the populace for not helping, were now offering enormous financial rewards to get their help. In Holm Cultram in 1814, the following policy was drawn up and published in the Carlisle Journal:

Whereas divers felonies and other Misdemeanors have lately been committed within the Parish of Holm Cultram in the County of Cumberland, the offenders having frequently escaped Justice NOTICE IS THEREFORE GIVEN That for the prevention thereof an ASSOCIATION is entered into amongst the Inhabitants of the said Parish for the Prosecution of all future offenders and that the most effectual means will be used to discover all suspected persons and bring the delinquents to condign punishment. Signed the 4th day of December, 1812 by the Committee appointed by the said Association… it was resolved and agree that the following rewards should be paid by the Treasurer out of the public fund to any person of persons not being a Member of the Association who shall apprehend any person or persons guilty of the following offences against any Member of the Society on conviction of such offender or offenders.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline hiyamarra

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Does anyone know of a connection between Holme Cultram and Gypsies
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 27 April 17 19:28 BST (UK) »
Freely collect ore to make Tin is a bit more difficult than that. You would need a smelter for the tin then a furnace to produce the steel that the tin is plated onto. Thats a major piece of industry. Good thought thanks but a bit off key
My McKenzie's seem to have travelled mainly in North Cumberland and just over the border into S.W. Scotland. The earliest trades I know the worked at was Razor Grinding, but some time around 1830's/40's they became Potters, buying their pots from the Jubilee Pottery at Dearham and selling around the area. They wintered at Ratten Row Dearham. Yet they and other families I descend from seemed to prefer Holme Cultram for baptisms.
Yes I've checked newspapers and local assizes records and typically of most travelling families there are quite a few petty offences.
Holmes, Keenan, McKenzie, Knowles, Berry.