Author Topic: Where to start in genetic geneology??  (Read 1400 times)

Offline Janethepain

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
    • View Profile
Where to start in genetic geneology??
« on: Monday 01 May 17 14:56 BST (UK) »
I did quite a bit of investigation on this subject a few years ago, but because of the high costs I didn't actually do any testing!  I have had very poor internet access over the last year, but now I am back up to date with my access, I want to get on with it.  Unfortunately I have forgotten everything I learned a few years ago!!  I do remember the 3 basic options, Y chromosome DNA (male line), Mitochondrial DNA (Female Line) & Autosomal DNA - which tests everything in between, but that is about it.

Vaguely I think I had decided that Y DNA testing would be my first choice, and as I have a brother(I am female) and a father still alive (he'll be 91 in September) I have 2 candidates to ask, though my brother lives in France and I only see him once or twice a year, so Dad who lives a 10 minute drive from me would be a better choice, and would he potentially get me one more generation back ? - or is that my imagination.  However I cant really remember the arguments, and anyway my reading is now 2 years out of date, advice might be quite different now.

I suspect that your own family history might influence the optimal choices people make, so here's my potted history:-

I live in central Scotland, and like many I have traced my ancestry back to Ireland, in practically 100% of lines.  I say practically, as on a couple of wee twig lines, I haven't got to Ireland, but it is still  likely in these cases that one more generation back they were Irish.  I have found no one who was definitively Scots.  The problem for many more than me, is that the Scottish records (birth/marriage/death/census) usually only say Ireland when they say anything at all.  However I am lucky that my ancestors came over to Scotland a long time ago, in the main, with the most recent line arriving in Glasgow in the early 1870's.  On the other side of my family, I have a greatx3 grandfather who married in Falkirk in 1826, so he was obviously here before the great famine of the 1840's.  I know that 2 lines came from Tyrone, one branch came from County Derry, and another from County Galway - near Clifden Connemara - but here their name was Burke, the most common name in the area, so tracing has been difficult (impossible!).

Anyway any advice of further reading, or even the benefit of your experience would be great.  Even a simple answer to is the AncestryDNA test autosomal, or do they do more that one type of test.  Though Ancestry is not great for Scottish records, it is great for its hints and for its tree facilities, as well as its coverage, so I have my tree on ancestry uk.

Thanks in anticipation, and I am away to read up on the ISOGG pages! :D
Allison - Rumford Stirlingshire & Ireland
Quinn - Rumford, Glasgow, Monklands & Tyrone
Convoy - Rumford, Monklands & Tyrone
Burke - Glasgow, Clifden Galway
Duffy - Cleland Lanarkshire, Monklands, Falkirk, Ireland
Curran - Cleland, Ireland
Reynolds - Cleland, Shettleston, Tollcross, Antrim
McDermott - Cleland, Shotts, (London)Derry

Offline RobertCasey

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 90
  • Irish research - specially R-L226 (Dal Cais)
    • View Profile
Re: Where to start in genetic geneology??
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 02 May 17 20:33 BST (UK) »
First, mtDNA tests provide very little genealogical related information but are great for building the tree of womankind. The problem with mtDNA is that it is not a chromosome and is a very small piece of DNA - only 16,000 base pairs in length. This is just not enough DNA to have much of any impact on genealogy. On the other hand, the Big Y is now testing 10,000,000 base pairs out of the 58,000,000. A very new and very expensive test is now yielding 20,000,000 base pairs. So YDNA currently has more than 1,000 times more content that can potentially mutate. So this rules out mtDNA when compared to YDNA.

Second, you next have fork in the road on which test to take next - atDNA or YDNA. You can pursue both as well. There are two huge differences in these tests: 1) atDNA covers all of your ancestors - but is limited to only six generations or less (on the average). This is because atDNA is recombinational where 50 % of the atDNA is randomly passed to each new generation. After only five or six generations, many of your ancestors will no longer be detected since the smaller pieces that are left can not be distinguished from random pieces. So atDNA is great for very recent to back to the 1800 to 1850 time frame. For recent adoptions (the last three or four generations), this is your primary test. The big advantage - it covers all lines - the big disadvantage - it becomes very unreliable in the 1700s. The atDNA test is also much less cost - under $100. However, this is somewhat misleading as many people test their brothers, sisters, parents and cousins.

YDNA is your next choice. This can easily find go back as far as any known genealogical trails back to 1,000 years with no problem. The big disadvantage, any one YDNA tester only reveals information about one of your all male lines. It is also hard to focus on maybe two or three all male lines - each costing the same amount to test. YDNA has by far the most exciting long term potential as academic papers state that every generation will have around five to ten mutations which will allows to easily connect all our lines together - without any names or places but will include approximate dates. For YDNA, I always recommend the FTDNA 67 marker test first. Based on your results, there many other next steps.

I am one of the admins for the second largest Irish haplogroup that exists (R-L226). These are people with Dal gCais ancestry in southern Ireland (related to King Brian Boru). The largest Irish haplogroup is R-M222 is three of four times larger than R-L226 (related to the O'Neil royalty around Dublin). There is extensive testing of these Irish haplogroups (just a fancy name for every that has tested or predicted to be tested for any YSNP branch - such as R-L226 or R-M222). R-L226 currently has 526 testers at the 67 marker resolution or higher. Around two years ago, we could only test R-L226 and did not know of any YSNP branches below R-L226. We now have 47 branches under R-L226 today and adding another branch every two or three weeks. We also have around 130 testers (out of 526) who have tested at least 40 branches robustly.

With all the YSTR information AND YSNP information, we can now chart around 78 % of the testers with an accuracy between 60 to 95 % (this can be verified by just YSNP testing the prediction). This equates to every four of five new testers will immediately know how they are related to all other L226 testers. By the end of this year, we should easily be able to chart 90 % of all 67 marker testers due to many pending tests. 15 branches are genealogical in nature (defined by the fact that more than 60 % share one surname - there will a lot of adoptions over the last 40 generations).

The technology is already available (for L226 at least), we only need more testers with Irish ancestry. For instance, my line is confirmed FGC5639 positive. If you test positive for this YSNP, this means that you belong to Casey line that migrated to South Carolina in the 1740s after the massive crop failures in Ireland during that decade. Since this line is L226 positive, we know that 80 % of these people originated from five Irish counties: Tipperrary, Clare, Cork, Limerick and Kerry.

Here is a chart of L226:

http://www.rcasey.net/DNA/R_L226/Haplotrees/L226_Home.pdf

You really do not have to really understand all the details of this YDNA analysis as there are many very knowledgeable admins to assist you with your results. You do need to set goals and objectives of what your highest priorities are, so that admins can give you advice on what to do next.

If you can prove any of your all male Casey ancestry back to Ireland in the 1850s or earlier and originate in Munster, I will send you a free 37 marker test $139 value (if you will upgrade the test to 67 markers - cost of $99 to upgrade).
Casey - Tipperary or Clare, Ireland
Kelly - Ireland
Brooks, Bryan, Shelton (2), Harper, Williamson - England
Tucker, Arrington, Stevenson, Shears, Jarvis - England
Hill (2), Reed, Olliff, Jackson, Potter, Cruse, Charlton - England
Davis. Martin, Ellison, Woodward, Alderson - England
Pace - Shropshire, England
Revier - Netherlands
Messer - Germany
Wininger - Switzerland

Offline Janethepain

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
    • View Profile
Re: Where to start in genetic geneology??
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 03 May 17 07:52 BST (UK) »
Thanks for your reply, just noticed my email notification this morning - will read properly after work tonight!
Allison - Rumford Stirlingshire & Ireland
Quinn - Rumford, Glasgow, Monklands & Tyrone
Convoy - Rumford, Monklands & Tyrone
Burke - Glasgow, Clifden Galway
Duffy - Cleland Lanarkshire, Monklands, Falkirk, Ireland
Curran - Cleland, Ireland
Reynolds - Cleland, Shettleston, Tollcross, Antrim
McDermott - Cleland, Shotts, (London)Derry

Offline hurworth

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,336
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Where to start in genetic geneology??
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 03 May 17 08:51 BST (UK) »
This article was written a few days ago.

https://dna-explained.com/2017/04/24/which-dna-test-is-best/

With autosomal testing it's always best to go as far up the totem pole as you can.  It's wonderful that your father is in his 10th decade. 

If you can afford it right now I would order him a Y-DNA test from FamilyTreeDNA.  I'm not sure which Y-DNA test you would be best to choose, as I haven't looked into it.  I would ALSO try to contact FtDNA (perhaps by telephone) and explain that he is 90 and request an extra swab/tube.  Otherwise they will send two, but it would be good to be able to send a third sample as backup.  They keep their samples for 25 years. 

That way you have tested his Y-DNA to whatever level, and have a sample in reserve if you want to do another Y-DNA test (there's all sorts of other Y-DNA tests you can do further down the track if you wish, depending on his results.  You also have his sample with them if he decides to order a FamilyFinder test (autosomal) further down the track.



Offline Ruskie

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 26,198
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Where to start in genetic geneology??
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 03 May 17 08:55 BST (UK) »
This new company is getting some positive feedback:
https://www.livingdna.com/en-au/press-releases/181/british-firm-pioneers-new-dna-ancestry-test

I agree that your father would be the best family member to test. The higher the markers the better.

Offline Janethepain

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 295
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.natio
    • View Profile
Re: Where to start in genetic geneology??
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 03 May 17 20:23 BST (UK) »
Thanks to everyone for all the information, I will look at the FT DNA information tonight - I think that is a good place to start.

Thanks Robert for the detailed information, unfortunately I don't have any Casey's in my lineage! My dad's line is Allison, which was the only one we thought might have been Scottish in origin.  However, just like all my other lines, (in and around 1850- 54) they arrived in Scotland from Ireland, Tyrone it would seem.  However I would not be surprised to find that they had jumped the Irish sea more than once, coming over from Scotland at some time previously!!

On my mothers side we are Duffy, perhaps a more interesting line to look at, and I have 2 male Duffy cousins, but unfortunately one is in Australia, and the other is a recluse who I haven't seen for many years, I don't think I could approach him to ask him to do a test.  And anyway, having persuaded a relative to do a test, is might not mean they would show you, or give you access to, the results!  Is there some accepted etiquette involved in this ??

Thanks Hurworth, looking at that website/review of tests  in between typing this up!  That advice on taking extra swabs for an additional test some point in the future, is wise.

Ruskie, thats an interesting link, and I take your advise about testing my dad's DNA!

I suspect I will start with a YDNA and then look at doing an autosomal test on my dad, because of his age  this might go back a little further than most.

Any way, back to the reading!
Allison - Rumford Stirlingshire & Ireland
Quinn - Rumford, Glasgow, Monklands & Tyrone
Convoy - Rumford, Monklands & Tyrone
Burke - Glasgow, Clifden Galway
Duffy - Cleland Lanarkshire, Monklands, Falkirk, Ireland
Curran - Cleland, Ireland
Reynolds - Cleland, Shettleston, Tollcross, Antrim
McDermott - Cleland, Shotts, (London)Derry

Offline RobertCasey

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 90
  • Irish research - specially R-L226 (Dal Cais)
    • View Profile
Re: Where to start in genetic geneology??
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 03 May 17 20:51 BST (UK) »
JanethePain - Getting access to your cousins results is a key issue that many miss. Encourage your cousin to join a project that publishes both the YSTR and YSNP reports (assuming this is a YDNA test). Once he joins several key projects: surname and geographic at first - and later haplogroup projects, you can just copy and paste their YDNA results.

If it is an atDNA test, you will see him as match and since you know your common ancestor, you can determine some share segments that belong to your common ancestor. I would encourage your cousin and yourself to download your raw atDNA data and then upload to GEDMATCH where better tools are available for analysis.
Casey - Tipperary or Clare, Ireland
Kelly - Ireland
Brooks, Bryan, Shelton (2), Harper, Williamson - England
Tucker, Arrington, Stevenson, Shears, Jarvis - England
Hill (2), Reed, Olliff, Jackson, Potter, Cruse, Charlton - England
Davis. Martin, Ellison, Woodward, Alderson - England
Pace - Shropshire, England
Revier - Netherlands
Messer - Germany
Wininger - Switzerland

Offline Ruskie

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 26,198
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Where to start in genetic geneology??
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 04 May 17 00:12 BST (UK) »
JanethePain, you could purchase any tests you want taken by any of your relatives. I did this with my father and husband's tests, so have their passwords etc. The only part they took in the test was taking the swab.  :)

It is a complex subject, especially for those still learning and those, like me, who find it extremely difficult to retain and understand any information I read on the subject (I don't think my mind works that way  ;) ). It can require a lot of perseverence to "get your head around" so unless they are committed it may not be wise to rely on cousins joining projects, interpreting their results and passing on their finds to you.