Author Topic: Female student in 1851? Gibson/Stronner St Vigeans.  (Read 1321 times)

Offline Liviani

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Female student in 1851? Gibson/Stronner St Vigeans.
« on: Friday 12 May 17 03:25 BST (UK) »
Found something possibly unusual in my tree tonight. Upon checking the 1851 census which has my 3x great-grandmother and my 4x great-grandmother in it.

Elisabeth Stronner/Stroner married James Gibson in 1823 in Maryton, Angus.

The daughter Elisabeth was born 1831 in Rescobie. 1831 Elisabeth married a James Bradford (sometimes noted as Bridgeford) in 1857 in St Vigeans.

I found them on the 1851 census on FreeCen in Colliston Butler's House. I'm almost 100% sure this is the same family I have in my tree given the parishes and approx dates of the children's births here.

I'm curious as to why there is a female student noted here in this time period? It must've been extremely unusual, and not to mention expensive? Can anyone perhaps shed some light on what this might've meant in 1851? Elisabeth b.1831 ended up a farm servant's wife in future census. What would be the purpose of a female student back then? As far as I'm aware, women worked until they were married and/or had children then stayed at home looking after them.

Also, where is James Gibson (Elisabeth Stronner's husband)? It doesn't state that she is widowed, but she is noted as the head of the house and still noted as "butler's wife"?  ???

Address: Colliston Butlers House


 Surname       First name(s)       Rel       Status       Sex       Age       Occupation       Where Born       Remarks   
        GIBSON       Elisabeth       Head       M       F       57       Butler's Wife        Angus - Inverkeillor           
        GIBSON       Elisabeth       Dau       U       F       19       Student (Orig: Scholar)        Angus - Rescobie           
        GIBSON       James       Son       U       M       11       Scholar        Angus - Arbroath           
    
        

I believe this is the same family in 1841 given what I know about their children.

Address: Midleton Manor House

        Surname       First name(s)       Sex       Age       Occupation       Where Born       Remarks   
        GIBSON       James       M       40       Male Servant        Angus           
        GIBSON       Elisabeth       F       40               Angus           
        GIBSON       Agnes       F       17               Angus           
        GIBSON       Charles       M       15               Angus           
        GIBSON       Elisabeth       F       9               Angus           
        GIBSON       James       M       2               Angus           
    
        

Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie, Moffat
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Beattie, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott, Tindal
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie

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Offline Rena

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Re: Female student in 1851? Gibson/Stronner St Vigeans.
« Reply #1 on: Friday 12 May 17 03:37 BST (UK) »
I've got three sisters who were scholars after the usual school leaving age.  I've since found two of them in a Glaswegian newspaper list inserted by an Academy of females who had qualified as teachers.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy
MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell
Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar
Ross, Urray:Mackenzie
Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell
Perthshire: Brown Ferguson
Wales: McCarthy, Thomas
England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells
Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

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Offline Liviani

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Re: Female student in 1851? Gibson/Stronner St Vigeans.
« Reply #2 on: Friday 12 May 17 03:39 BST (UK) »
I've got three sisters who were scholars after the usual school leaving age.  I've since found two of them in a Glaswegian newspaper list inserted by an Academy of females who had qualified as teachers.

This is interesting. I'll see what I can find out through newspaper archives. Thanks!
Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie, Moffat
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Beattie, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott, Tindal
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie

Offline snowolf

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Re: Female student in 1851? Gibson/Stronner St Vigeans.
« Reply #3 on: Friday 12 May 17 06:20 BST (UK) »
Hello Liviani,
   Found this on freecen
                                1851 Cencus, Colliston House ,St Vigeans.
George Robertson ,(65) retired General merchant,..........Born Arbroath.
JAMES GIBSON (51)  BUTLER,...VISITOR...........BORN KIRKDEN.
Isabell Davidson  (29) Housemaid...........Born Fordoun.

it says he is unmarried ,but maybe thats a mistake (maybe had an argument with his wife at time )  ;D. ;D
                     cheers,
Snowolf
"Durward"... (logie-pert, Dundee, Scotland,& Sydney ,Australia ,New Hampshire , U.S.A ).  "Johnston"..(Logie-pert, "Smith".."Arbuthnott/ monifieth/Montrose/laurencekirk , Scotland) "Kennedy"..(Dundee,Comrie) Scotland  & Australia. "Marshall"..(alloa, Clackmannanshire , Scotland). 
" Myles".. ( Scone, Perthshire , Scotland).
"Edward".. (Kincardneshire ,Dundee,Scotland),  Taylor..(Garvock,Kincardineshire,Scotland) , "Young"..(Kincardineshire),Scotland.
"Robertson"..Perthshire ,Scotland)

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Female student in 1851? Gibson/Stronner St Vigeans.
« Reply #4 on: Friday 12 May 17 07:58 BST (UK) »
I'm curious as to why there is a female student noted here in this time period?
I see that you have obtained this from some transcription or other, and that the transcription reads, "Student (orig Scholar)". This suggests to me that the original records her as a scholar, but that the transcriber, for some reason, has altered this to student.

This sort of thing is one of the reasons why it is always necessary to look at the original document on Scotland's People to see exactly what it does say.
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Liviani

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Re: Female student in 1851? Gibson/Stronner St Vigeans.
« Reply #5 on: Friday 12 May 17 08:22 BST (UK) »
I'm curious as to why there is a female student noted here in this time period?
I see that you have obtained this from some transcription or other, and that the transcription reads, "Student (orig Scholar)". This suggests to me that the original records her as a scholar, but that the transcriber, for some reason, has altered this to student.

This sort of thing is one of the reasons why it is always necessary to look at the original document on Scotland's People to see exactly what it does say.

I have noticed that it was down as scholar on other sources.

But the main question still remains. Scholar/student, still pertains to some form of education or study.
Which, for a 19 year old woman from a servant family in 1851 seems unusual to say the least. I would've expected a single woman of that age and from that background to be in some form of employment.

I wasn't so fussed about the semantics in this census record. Personally I'm not overly keen on spending credits on census records when they can be found elsewhere. The only time I will do this is if the transcription is completely impossible to work out from my own research. I prefer to keep my credits for death certs to confirm parents names, or curious about an address from an OPR record. For this particular record I was satisfied that student/scholar gave me enough of an idea to work from.

Having thought about it more, since her father was a butler they obviously worked for a wealthy family. It could be something like the family offering to pay her through some form of education? Perhaps her writing, reading or arithmetic weren't up to standard and they wanted to help, or needed her skills in the household?

Not able to research this household at the moment as I'm on mobile, but will try and find out more about the family that lived at Colliston House (is this the place that's now the hotel in Colliston?) at the time to see if there was anything to hint that they were charitable people.

@snowolf

I've noticed from that record that you found that James was staying nearby at Colliston House. Perhaps he was needed to work overnight?

A much smaller household than I expected for a house like that. Thank you for the find there. This is the same man. Great stuff.

I have a feeling that him being down as "unmarried" could be some form of assumption by the enumerator given that be isn't listed with a wife at that address in that night. Pure speculation, but this is him for sure.
Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie, Moffat
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Beattie, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott, Tindal
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Female student in 1851? Gibson/Stronner St Vigeans.
« Reply #6 on: Friday 12 May 17 17:47 BST (UK) »
Colliston House (is this the place that's now the hotel in Colliston?)

No. Go to http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=56.6023&lon=-2.6353&layers=5&b=1

You will see Colliston House at the top of the screen, and Gowanbank, which is where the present Colliston Inn is. Letham Grange, which is also a hotel, is to the right.

Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith

Offline Liviani

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Re: Female student in 1851? Gibson/Stronner St Vigeans.
« Reply #7 on: Friday 12 May 17 20:59 BST (UK) »
Colliston House (is this the place that's now the hotel in Colliston?)

No. Go to http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15&lat=56.6023&lon=-2.6353&layers=5&b=1

You will see Colliston House at the top of the screen, and Gowanbank, which is where the present Colliston Inn is. Letham Grange, which is also a hotel, is to the right.

Ah ok, this is a great help. Thank you Forfarian.

I've noticed from the location of Colliston House that it's also known as Colliston Castle. And at the time appears to have been owned by a George Robertson Chaplin of Auchengray.

Mentioned in wikipedia here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colliston_Castle

It doesn't give dates of who owned it when exactly but, there was a 65 year old George Robertson as the head of Colliston House in 1851. He is noted as a retired general merchant.

I went ahead with ordering the image of the 1851 census because I began to question the authenticity of the "scholar" transcription. I began to doubt it in case it was actually "spinner" or something similar that has been mis-transcribed.

As it turns out it is indeed Scholar for 19 year old Elisabeth. It is the exact same writing for her 11 year old brother James who is of course noted as a scholar given his age.

Interestingly this with this census record, Colliston House is just above the entry for the Butler's House. George Robertson, James Gibson and Isabella Davidson being noted in this entry. What I have noticed is that what is actually transcribed as a "U" for "unmarried" for James Gibson, actually appears to be an "M" after all. Although the lettering is quite similar, but different enough for me to be satisfied that it is actually an "M" for married. Also interestingly here, there is a circle around James Gibson and Elisabeth Gibson's ages with a line linking them. This indicates that they are a couple. Where do these marks come from actually? Was this from the enumerator or someone who was tallying up the residents in the area? Or perhaps it's much later "scribbles"?

I will include a snippet of the entry so you can see what I mean.



I've also come across something a tad bit confusing regarding James Gibson the butler and one of his children. I've searched newspaper articles and found one  from the Dundee courier on the 14th March 1856. There is an entry for a marriage image below;



Isabella Smith the third daughter of James Gibson? Now, would Smith be her middle name rather than her surname? I've also not found an Isabella at all for James Gibson and Elisabeth Stronner. I have wrongly snipped the last word of the article off but it states James Gibson, Colliston.

I have these children so far for them;

Agnes b.1823
Mary b.1826
Elis(z)abeth b.1831
James b.1839

But, nothing for an Isabella. This could of course be a completely different James Gibson, but we do know he was living in Colliston in 5 years prior to this entry that is in the Dundee Courier.

I also have a Charles b. abt 1825 but cannot find anything in relation to his birth. He is listed with the family at Middleton Manor House, Kirkden in the 1841 census. Given James' occupation as butler in 1851, it makes sense that he was in another manor house type occupation 10 years earlier as a male servant. The previous entry to the 1841 Gibsons has a very large household of Middleton Manor House, full of independents and servants also. The head of this household is a William Bruce Gardyne Esq. It appears James Gibson was for a long time employed by the landed gentry of Angus.







Kincardineshire
Sheret, Hosie, Valentine, Crow, Beattie, McArthur, Wyllie, Moffat
Angus (Forfarshire)
Adam, Valentine, Ewan, Beattie, Guild, Kydd, Bradford, Stronner, Gibson, Cloudsley, Evans, Stewart, Stott, Tindal
Perthshire
Small, Robertson, Murray
Ross & Cromarty
Cameron, Stewart, Grant
Banffshire - Gamrie
Anderson, Massie

Offline Forfarian

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Re: Female student in 1851? Gibson/Stronner St Vigeans.
« Reply #8 on: Friday 12 May 17 22:01 BST (UK) »
Isabella Smith the third daughter of James Gibson? Now, would Smith be her middle name rather than her surname?
Yes, it would.

Having looked at the FreeCEN transcription of the 1841 census, there is definitely something odd about this.

SP lists only two daughters of James G and Elizabeth Stronner: Agnes, 1823 and Elizabeth, 1831. If Isabella was their younger sister, she must either have been born after 7 June 1841 and not with her parents in 1851, or she must have been somewhere else in both 1841 and 1851. There is space for two more children between Charles and Elizabeth, but again, if Isabella fits in here, where was she in 1841 and 1851?

James Gibson isn't old enough to have been married before and have three daughters by a first wife before marrying Eliabeth Stronner in 1823.

I reckon you need that marriage certificate of Isabella Smith Gibson to William Nicol in St Vigeans in 1856!
Researching

AITKENHEAD, Lanarkshire; BINNY, Forfar; BLACK, New Monkland; BRYSON, Cumbernauld; BURGESS, North-East Scotland; CRUICKSHANK, Rothes; DALLAS, Botriphnie; DAVIDSON, Oyne; GUTHRIE, Angus; HOGG, Larbert; LESLIE, Rothes/Mortlach; MENDUM, England; MOLLISON, Lethnot; PATERSON, Larbert; RHIND, Forfar; SANG, Scotland; SCOTT, East Kilbride; STOR(R)I/E/Y, Shotts; THORNTON, Shotts; WADDELL, New Monkland; WILKIE, New Monkland; WILKIE, Tannadice; WYLLIE, Angus; YOUNG, Keith