Assistance with two Family crests

[davidbappleton]

Yes, that's pretty much it. The unchanged arms go down from the original grantee through a line of eldest sons. Everyone else should use a differenced version.

Again, that's the theory; in practice, we quite often seen the younger sons and their descendants also using the undifferenced arms.

David

[notaninch]

Yes, that's pretty much it. The unchanged arms go down from the original grantee through a line of eldest sons. Everyone else should use a differenced version.

Again, that's the theory; in practice, we quite often seen the younger sons and their descendants also using the undifferenced arms.

David

David just want to run this by you. In the attached are two coats of arms. I believe they are two distinct branches of the family  the coloured one being the Irish contingent and the monochrome and English contingent. Bear with me there is a slight twist the monochrome one existed before but without the mullet. So there were 3 coats awarded at various times. As far as I can tell the monochrome coat disappeared because this line died out in the about 1690. The coloured one is still in use. Does this make sense to you and do you think I've about got the correct interpretation based on heraldic conventions. 

[KGarrad]

The "monochrome" version actually has letters indicating the colours!

Or and Gu = Or and Gules = Yellow and red.
The bend (diagonal stripe) is ermine which is always white with black markings.

So, they are the same Coat-of-arms, except 1 has a mullet for difference.

[davidbappleton]

Except for the mullet, the mark of a third son, however, the two coats are identical, that is to say, they would each be blazoned as Per fess or and gules a bend ermine and they share the same crest. All we really can say is that the monochrome coat ("tricked," since it tells us that the tinctures are "Or" and "Gu") was borne by a third son, and it may or may not have been the result of a specific grant of arms; very frequently younger sons simply used their father's arms with a mark of difference without going to the heralds to receive a grant of their own. Indeed, the text of many grants of arms state that they may be borne by the grantee "and by his descendants with due and proper difference and according to the Laws of Arms," so no additional grants needed to be made to any of these descendants.

So I doubt that there were three different grants of arms here. It's possible that there were two, one Irish and one English; but it's also entirely possible that there was but one, and the different branches of the family on both sides of the Irish Sea used the same arms.

David

[notaninch]

Except for the mullet, the mark of a third son, however, the two coats are identical, that is to say, they would each be blazoned as Per fess or and gules a bend ermine and they share the same crest. All we really can say is that the monochrome coat ("tricked," since it tells us that the tinctures are "Or" and "Gu") was borne by a third son, and it may or may not have been the result of a specific grant of arms; very frequently younger sons simply used their father's arms with a mark of difference without going to the heralds to receive a grant of their own. Indeed, the text of many grants of arms state that they may be borne by the grantee "and by his descendants with due and proper difference and according to the Laws of Arms," so no additional grants needed to be made to any of these descendants.

So I doubt that there were three different grants of arms here. It's possible that there were two, one Irish and one English; but it's also entirely possible that there was but one, and the different branches of the family on both sides of the Irish Sea used the same arms.

David

I probably need to enrol in a post graduate course on heraldry or just give up or have a few stiff drinks.

Naively there I was thinking there were clear defined rules that even someone of my limited knowledge might understand. Well I got that badly wrong then. A big thank you nevertheless because I am further forward than before so thanks again David really appreciated and K. G too a thank you for your contribution.

Need to check out my heraldic dictionary, bin it, start again and have a lie down in a dark room lol. Cheers

[davidbappleton]

I think John Brooke-Little, former Norroy and Ulster King of Arms, said it best in the introduction to his book An Heraldic Alphabet:

"You can study heraldry until you are azure ... in the face but inevitably discover, from time to time, that you really are quite vert.... I have found this over and over again but, never forget, herein lies the fun and if heraldry ever ceases to be fun- chuck it."

I have been studying and researching heraldry for over 35 years, and continue to learn something new about it on a fairly regular basis.

But, yeah, sometimes a lie down in a dark room seems like a very pleasant idea!

David

[KGarrad]

Drawshield.net is a good starting point!
Try the Help pages.

[notaninch]

I think John Brooke-Little, former Norroy and Ulster King of Arms, said it best in the introduction to his book An Heraldic Alphabet:

"You can study heraldry until you are azure ... in the face but inevitably discover, from time to time, that you really are quite vert.... I have found this over and over again but, never forget, herein lies the fun and if heraldry ever ceases to be fun- chuck it."

I have been studying and researching heraldry for over 35 years, and continue to learn something new about it on a fairly regular basis.

But, yeah, sometimes a lie down in a dark room seems like a very pleasant idea!

David

Hello David

Hope you are well. Need assistance with one more crest. I need to understand how this one has developed from the original. As far as I can tell this one is a later version of the English one but used by an Irish direct descendant.  However I don't fully understand the quartering. The original had a sitting lion but this has one has two lions one sitting and another lion standing why ? Why are there 3 quarters and what is the Irish part and what the English ? Am I making sense?

[davidbappleton]

There is only one crest here, "A lion sejant argent sustaining an oval shield, per fess or and gules charged with a bend ermine."

The shield has the arms of Mathew Pennefather (Per fess or and gules a bend ermine) on the dexter half of the shield, impaled with the arms of his wife (or more strictly speaking, his wife's father) on the sinister half of the shield. Those arms are not entirely clear here, since the image doesn't show hatching or the details of the lion very well, but look to be something like "(Azure or gules) a lion rampant crowned(?) (and possible holding something in its dexter forpaw) (probably or)."

If this Mathew Pennefather is the Matthew Pennefather (1784-1858), son of Richard and Anna (Jacob) Pennefather, his wife was Anna, daughter of Daniel O'Connor of Ballybricken, co. Cork. Some of the O'Connor families of Ireland (mostly in County Kerry that I can see) bear the arms "Vert a lion rampant double-queued and crowned or." I can't tell from the scan; does the lion here have two tails?

In any case, this form of impalement (of two coats of arms on a single shield) is a common way for a husband and wife to display their combined arms during their lifetimes. Their children would not inherit the wife's arms.

I hop that this information is helpful to you.

David